Rjdc

[NYRANGERS]

What do you guys think about a separate Regional Pilots union??

I am all for it!!!!!!! See how well you do with that.

One more thing......Why is it that the only counter to PCL's statements about the rjdc is "wrong", "false" and so forth? If he is wrong, please tell us why.

GFYS

 

[Freight Dog]

Surplus and SDD:

This was taken directly off of www.rjdefense.com


ALPA's use of job security, known as "scope" provisions in airline contracts, has long since transcended its traditional role and evolved into a remote control device by which major airline pilots control aircraft they don't fly by inhibiting small airliners from operating freely in the marketplace. This is clearly a convoluted restraint of free trade scenario and constitutes a major violation of the union's obligation to represent the interests of the union pilots who depend upon the RJ for their livelihoods. As such, we believe that ALPA is vulnerable to a legal challenge.


I read that as removing job security protections for EVERYONE, and even you since you lost your MCO domicile to a lower-bidder.

Here's another article DIRECTLY from the RELIEF sought by the lawsuit.


Seeking relief from "Negotiating, facilitating or advocating the use of scope clauses in collective bargaining agreements in such manner as to exercise control over the flying of pilots for a carrier other than the one for which the collective bargaining agreement is being negotiated.

Approving, or implementing, those portions of the Scope Clause of the Tentantive Agreement that would impose restrictions on flying by Comair"

Wait a minute here, you fly under DL code, not under OH code anymore. Secondly, you are owned by Delta, they decide who/what/when. Finally, in the lawsuit, you seek to force ALPA to invoke merger policy when nothing in either contract requires a merger.

Don't slam PCL because of his avatar. Read the fine print on www.rjdefense.com and draw your conclusions. Most regional pilots oppose this lawsuit as it would end the job security at every level (mainline and regional). Look at Comair. While they are enjoying expansion, they lost their MCO domicile and quite a bit of their Florida flying to CHQ due to lack of scope. Yet, many are blind to see this as a by-product of lacking scope. With FM coming to an end, and Delta pilot recall schedule being based on RPMs at BOTH DCI and Delta, watch Comair's flying eventually dwindle down, and since they don't have a scope, but otherwise a pretty good contract, their flying farmed out to the likes of CHQ, SkyWest, etc. since those mainline boys will either have to fly or get recalled and sit at home while getting paid. Comair has a good contract, so why pay them when you can pay CHQ less for the same job? It could potentially be very harmful to the careers of junior Comair pilots. Let's hope not. But it definitely is a possibility.

 

[Palerider957]

NYRANGERS

Just curious, when you say "see how well you do with that." I'm not sure what you mean. Do you think a serperate Regional Pilot union would fall on it's face? I think if regionals combined under one contract, or at least set one standard it could be quite a force to recon with. You also mention that most regional pilots are against the RJDC, I'm not so sure that's true. I think most want to know more about it and who's behind it--we're all a suspicious bunch, convinced that management is lurking behind the scenes.

We hear a lot of talk about scope, but it seems it's an artificial method of stopping a fundamental trend driven by economics--more RJ's and fewer mainline aircraft. We can contract, legislate, negotiate, forever; but the trend is slow and steadily marching toward RJ's. I don't say this to anger anyone, it just seems the business is heading this way.

Actually the term "regional" is fast falling by the wayside. ASA, Comair, AE, are all at the "National" level in both revenue and area of operation. Am I wrong? With this, look at the national/major folks, SWA, JB, and soon AirTran.

I think we're seeing a fundamental change in U.S. Airline ops, scope will slow the trend, but not stop it...there will be plenty of growing pains to go around.

Just my .02 worth.

 

[DASHDRIVER]

"that amount of money would bankrupt ALPA and destroy our great union."


I know very little about RJDC. But this one statment is worth arguing. Is this this the same Union that cooked up Jets for Jobs? Lets give Mainline pilots other Alpa jobs because they are so much more deserving.

ALPA = Fair Representation Only For Mainline Pilots

 

[NYRANGERS]

NYRANGERS

You also mention that most regional pilots are against the RJDC, I'm not so sure that's true. I think most want to know more about it and who's behind it--we're all a suspicious bunch, convinced that management is lurking behind the scenes.


Just my .02 worth.

I never said any such thing. I think most are in silent support of the rjdc, or don't feel they have an opinion one way or the other. With regard to the separate union, I support your idea.

 

[NYRANGERS]

NYRANGERS


We hear a lot of talk about scope, but it seems it's an artificial method of stopping a fundamental trend driven by economics--more RJ's and fewer mainline aircraft. We can contract, legislate, negotiate, forever; but the trend is slow and steadily marching toward RJ's. I don't say this to anger anyone, it just seems the business is heading this way.


Just my .02 worth.

Wrong again, Delta may operate as many rj's as they wish. The only thing limited is who flys them. Your 50 seaters are not limited as per numbers. They are limited in block hour restrictions, and %49 is hardly a restriction.

 

[NYRANGERS]

"that amount of money would bankrupt ALPA and destroy our great union."


I know very little about RJDC. But this one statment is worth arguing. Is this this the same Union that cooked up Jets for Jobs? Lets give Mainline pilots other Alpa jobs because they are so much more deserving.

ALPA = Fair Representation Only For Mainline Pilots

Would you loose your job over jfj's? Or are you in the long line of unhappy U commuter pilots who take enjoyment in seeing pilots loose their jobs?

I am not that impressed with Jfj's. I think the majors need to secure the rj exclusivley for themselves. Insted of jfj's U should start another portfolio carrier to be staffed exclusivley by furloughed U pilots. After all you allready have a job and you seem to want to keep others out.

YMNTGFY

 

[PCL_128]

Surplus:

It seems that all you can say is "false." How about actually saying WHY my statements are false? Just to speed the process along here, I'll post excerpts from the lawsuit that you support so strongly. Explain to me why these parts of the lawsuit aren't what they seem to be:

Elimination of scope (from Relief, Section a.5 & 6):

A permanent injunction enjoining defendant AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION from

5) Negotiating, facilitating, or advocating, or
assisting others in negotiating, facilitating, or advocating, the use of scope clauses in collective bargaining agreements in such manner as to exercise control over the flying of pilots for a carrier other than the one for which the collective bargaining agreement is being negotiated.
6) Approving, or implementing, those portions of the
Scope Clause of the Tentative Agreement that would impose restrictions on flying by Comair.

It seems to me that this part of the lawsuit seeks the complete elimination of scope as we know it. How was I false in my first statement? How about the cash reward:

(Taken from Relief, Section J)

j. as to the claims set forth in Count X,
such sum as may be determined at trial, but in no event less than Two Million Dollars ($2,000,000.00) Dollars each, plus the cumulative sum of One Hundred Million ($100,000,000.00) as exemplary and punitive damages.

How was I false earlier in my statements about the cash reward?

It seems to me that you don't even understand the lawsuit that YOU support! You keep saying "false," but the lawsuit speaks for itself.

 

[Palerider957]

NY RANGERS:

OK, so we're not limited in 50 seaters, there is still a lot of talk of limiting 70 and 90 seat RJ's. So we're limited to %49 of total block, and granted this is a lot of total flying time--which goes to my point that the industry (management and CEO's) is turning toward RJ's, that's all I'm saying.

On the ALPA website they have the study done for CoEx. Accodring to their numbers overall load factors go up with increased frequency of service to any given city. The idea being you give passengers more choice and they will fly more often. RJ's are MUCH more cost effective (partly becauce of size, partly because of technology) to operate with increased frequency.

Am I wrong? I'm not challenging, just asking. Do you see a different future? Tell me what you see for the next 10-20 years.

If I misquoted you earlier, I apologize, I may have read the posts too quickly.

 

[Palerider957]

NYRANGERS:

Another question I haven't been able to get a straight answer to. I heard that before the Delta furloughs, management approached the DAL pilot group and asked for concessions. If the pilots agreed they would have kept all of the pilots working. I heard (granted 3rd. hand) the senior guys said no way to pay cuts.

Can you confirm or kill this?