RJDC Litigation Update

[JoeMerchant]

Trying to silence those that oppose you is a classic sign of a weak position. Nice try, though.

Your so right PCL128. His insights are not nearly as profound and his positions not nearly as strong as yours. Your many years of ALPA work and vast industry experience are shining through O'Great One.

 

[AAflyer]

Legacy pilots, you're an idiot that has no clue what consequences your greed had. If you had any idea how expensive a GOOD contract is, you would have avoided it like the plague. You are what is wrong with this industry, you are why airlines have been crippled, you are why so many pilots are on furlough, because of GREED, because of a mistaken sense of pride, and because your sense of entitlement extends beyond your intent to bring yourself home safe every night. You are the downfall of this industry. NOT us!

That is the most brilliant post I have ever read! I guess after leaving my regional I then "aided" in the downfall of our industry (or did you mean career?) I think a few economists would differ on what actually started airlines to bleed cash.

I notice an even greater push of "regional" companies that continue to "undercut" other companies in the pursuit of winning contracts from the legacies, and the continued pressure to reduce costs at the regional level (for goodness sake, Mesaba is asking their FOs for a paycut).

I noticed recently one DAL regional willing to freeze pay to attain an aircraft order over the other affiliate, I am glad that was not done out of greed.

Pilots at all levels will look at for themselves, I am surprised you have not figured that out yet, (it is happening before your eyes all over the place). There was greed at the top level, and now it is drifting down. You will see history repeat itself because in the end we are not the "smart".

Enjoy your rise and demise.....

AA

 

[~~~^~~~]

I appreciate the update and am glad that there is a powerful effort to reform ALPA, back to the day when it was The Pilots' Union. By allowing a couple MEC's to hijack the union and change the rules to their advantage, the rest of ALPA's members were excluded. When the "preferred" guys began using the union to negotiate in a predatory fashion, the race for the bottom began.

The only way ALPA, and our profession, will be repaired is if the RJDC is successful in forcing ALPA to allow all its members to participate and enjoy the fruits of ALPA's representation.

ALPA has obviously been going down the wrong road. Everyone seems willing to admit this fact. So why not return ALPA to its roots, when the union fought alter ego and tried to take pilot wages out of the competition between our employers? Why not allow all of ALPA's members to participate in a stronger union?

I support the RJDC as the best possible way to save our union.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Your so right PCL128. His insights are not nearly as profound and his positions not nearly as strong as yours. Your many years of ALPA work and vast industry experience are shining through O'Great One.

Bwhahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[PCL_128]

Your right about knowing the backgrounds of the people you are debating with. Maybe you could help us learn a little more about you. Here are some questions for you:

1. How many hours did you have when you were hired by Gulfstream?
2. How much did you pay Gulfstream for the privledge of flying for their great company?
3. How many hours did you have when you were hired at Pinnacle?

You already know the answers to those questions, so I'm not going to waste my time with answering them yet again. That was a skillful dodge, however. So, I ask again, are you one of the RJDC leadership? Are you named in the lawsuit? Is anyone from this message board?

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL, talk about a dodge... I don't know the answer to the questions that Joe asked you. You can tell me if you don't want to tell him - or - better yet, why don't we debate facts rather than engage in personal attacks? The reason why all of us spend time on this board is because we care out our profession and most of us are probably the activitists that are trying to make things better.

We might disagree, but I think we are "friends" in that we all want to see this profession restored.

In case you were genuinely curious - Joe is not named in the lawsuit. I do not know either way about his "leadership role" but I don't think anyone on the RJDC's leadership team posts on Flight Info outside of things that have been reviewed by Counsel. I'm guessing the attorneys would not care much for potential witnesses being on a public bulletin board. Duane Woerth doesn't show up on the boards either.

Dan Ford and his crew have been busy lately preparing. The Court, rather than honor ALPA's request to delay, actually sped up the discovery schedule.

 

[PCL_128]

The reason why all of us spend time on this board is because we care out our profession and most of us are probably the activitists that are trying to make things better.

We might disagree, but I think we are "friends" in that we all want to see this profession restored.

You're absolutely right. Despite the harsh tone these threads sometimes take, I actually don't have anything personally against most RJDC supporters. I've always thought that you are just doing what you think is right for the Association. Of course, we disagree on the way to go about changing the Association, but we do agree that certain things need to be changed somehow.

 

[surplus1]

PCL,

I'm not "named" in the lawsuit either but I do support what the RJDC stands for and have been writing about those things from before the RJDC existed.

I do know the principals personally and they are all people of high integrity who seek nothing for themselves.

One of your problems is that you haven't been at this game long enough to fully comprehend what this is all about. Additionally, you are heavily influenced by your mainline friends all of whom have an agenda of their own. Their agenda includes being able to control and take advantage of pilots in smaller airlines whenever they want to. The RJDC threatens to prevent that from continuing and that is why they despise it. I don't doubt that you genuinely believe what they say. However, I do doubt that they genuinely tell you how they really think. They tell you what they want you to hear and you are still gullible enough to believe it. You're not unusual, that's what ALPA tries to do to all its regional members. Dazzle them with grandeur and BS, then screw them when they aren't looking. Many or even most fall for it, others don't.

Don't take that as a "personal" attack for it isn't. I don't care how you got your start in the business, even if you did it at a company owned and operated by a scab. I also don't care how many "hours" you had when you started at PCL or how many hours you have now. That is all irrelevant to me and I have no "grudge" against you because of it. At least when it comes to me, you can forget all that. I'm an old pilot an you're a young pilot. I care about what you think, how you think and you understanding of our industry. You are part of its future and that is important. I want when I go to leave something behind that will contribute to your success in your chosen career and that goes way beyond the cockpit itself. I don't give a da_n where you learned to fly as long as you did learn and continue to do so. There are very few of us that started out as astronauts although many of us seem to think that we did.

I do however and say again, care what you think and I regret that you are misguided. I'm not sure, but I think you're a relatively new ALPA rep. It is nice that you take your time in an effort to help your fellow pilots. You need to understand your union and you won't get that true understanding only from the books they give you to read or the speeches of ALPA politicians. You need to dig deep on your own.

Maybe you don't know it but almost all of the principals in the RJDC litigation have also been ALPA volunteers and include former MEC Officers at their respective airlines. The leader of the group, although not a politician, is also a former ALPA volunteer and served for years in a very important position, both in his own airline and at the "national" level. He's not just an upstart that's too big for his britches. He's just a staight shooting pilot dedicated to his profession. For the record, neither his status or yours is relegated to one of inferioty based only on the size of the equipment operated by your airline. We all put our pants on one leg at a time.

These RJDC folks are not people who don't know or don't understand the inner workings of ALPA. They all have an acute understanding and a lot more "experience" at it than you do. For the record, I have been an ALPA volunteer myself and I think it safe to say that I have served in ALPA positions longer than you have had a pilots' license. Neither I nor any of the RJDC people want, expect or are asking for any "medals" due to their prior ALPA service. All that we seek is to have ALPA honor its duty of fair representation to ALL of its members and not just to its preferred members. That doesn't mean you have to agree with the RJDC or with any of the people that support it. However, you do need to get it through your head that they aren't blowhards and they are not a bunch of people seeking some benefit for themselves or any number on somebody's list.

I'm not going to tell you who I am and I would not tell you who they were if I knew they were writing in this forum. I don't know who you are either and I have no need to know. What little I do know about your background is only because you have said it yourself in a variety of different posts.

Who you are is not important. What you say and how you think IS important. That's what you need to focus on, i.e., the thinking of the writer, not his personal identity. Give it a try and your posts will be taken a lot more seriously.

Contrary to the rhetoric of mainline pilots, the RJDC is not trying to eliminate all Scope. That would be stupid and I can assure you that none of the principals are stupid. You may disagree all you wish with what they advocate, but they aren't stupid.

It happens I know DW personally. We don't agree with each other and we both know it. However, I would not call or think him stupid for he most certainly isn't. We have serious differences of opinion and they relate to his leadership of the Association, but he is a very smart man and a clever politician. You don't get to be President of the ALPA if you're an idiot.

By the same measure there are no stupid MEC Chairmen at any of the legacy carriers. However, that doesn't make them perfect nor does it make them right about all things. It just makes them good politicians. It might also do you well to recognize that genuis is not a product determined by the size of the airplane you happen to fly. Mainline piots know that but far too many of them seem unable to admit it to other pilots who don't happen to work for a very large airline. Trust me -- how far you stand from the urinal is not related to length of your aircraft's fuselage.

I think you should let youself realize that the leaders of the RJDC are also very smart men. Expand your exploration and knowledge of what they are trying to do. Don't base your opinions on rhetoric from a few mainline pilots. Make an independent analysis and form your own opinion. If you still disagree, so be it. We will never all have the same opinions.

Just try to recognize that if your mainline friends had their way, the company you work for today would not exist. I guarantee you that would not result in them being ready or willing to offer you a job at their company. They would walk away tomorrow happy to know that they got rid of one regional airline, and you would be left in the unemployment line. Your brothers at NW are trying to do that right now, and your union is in the process of providing them with its full support in the effort, with total disregard for whatever might happen to you or any PCL pilot as a result. If they could figure out how to put their furloughed pilots in the left seat of your company's airplanes they would do it in a minute and not worry at all about how you might be affected.

The othe NW "feeder" has a long-time leader who's very "popular" with the big wigs of ALPA national. For more than ten years he's been kissing the butts of every NW MEC Chairman in existense, begging for flow througs, supporting their strikes, and eating crow in Herdon. What has been the benefit? Nothing; zero. Look where his pilots are right now. On the brink of extinction, while his friends at NW make agreements that would permit the introduction of yet anothe feeder to threaten his pilots jobs. And who supports that? Why the very union that he has been serving for well over a decade.

Are NW pilots and ALPA the only one's responsible for that? NO, not at all. Do they share in that responsibility? He!! yes; and you can bet your life on it. Would they be glad to see MSA disappear? You bet they would.

Well guess what .... Mesaba pilots are also dues paying members of ALPA and their union has the identical responsbility to protect their jobs and interests that is does to protect the jobs and interests of NW pilots. The union isn't doing that and that is wrong!

Every member of ALPA is equal to every other member of ALPA and entitled to the same representation. When ALPA chooses to support the interests of some of its members at the expense of others of its members, ALPA violates its Duty of Fair Representation and Federal law.

That's what this lawsuit is all about; nothing more. The fact that NW pilots or Delta pilots, or United pilots, or USAir pilots have better jobs and make more money and fly bigger airliners than MSA pilots, PCL pilots, CMR pilots, ASA pilots, AWAC pilots, PDT pilots, PSA pilots, etc., does not entitle the Union to prefer one group, descriminate against another group, or represent one group at the expense of the other. Until the union corrects that problem, litigation will continue and I can only hope the courts will force ALPA to do what the law requires, whether it wants to or not.

 

[Catbird]

"That's what this lawsuit is all about; nothing more. The fact that NW pilots or Delta pilots, or United pilots, or USAir pilots have better jobs and make more money and fly bigger airliners than MSA pilots, PCL pilots, CMR pilots, ASA pilots, AWAC pilots, PDT pilots, PSA pilots, etc., does not entitle the Union to prefer one group, descriminate against another group, or represent one group at the expense of the other. Until the union corrects that problem, litigation will continue and I can only hope the courts will force ALPA to do what the law requires, whether it wants to or not."

Great post Surplus. Lets hope the judge twist the red hot poker up Duane and his Cabana Boy's pampered behinds in the coming weeks. Please keep posting the info is appreciated.

 

[thatsux]

It seems to boil down to that if you are a regional lifer for any reason then you should support the RJDC. If you someday hope to get on with a major then you should oppose the RJDC.

 

[mrnolmts]

Let me start off by saying I am not at all familiar with RJDC or this lawsuit.
I will give my 2c on this, though: In my opinion, there can be *no* doubt that there is a conflict of interest when you have ALPA "representing" both Delta mainline and Delta Connection pilots in matters where the two groups have obvious conflicting interests. For that reason, I can definitely see how a lawsuit regarding those matters would have merit.

 

[ex j-41]

Aaflyer

I notice an even greater push of "regional" companies that continue to "undercut" other companies in the pursuit of winning contracts from the legacies, and the continued pressure to reduce costs at the regional level (for goodness sake, Mesaba is asking their FOs for a paycut).

Don't blame this on the pilots. What do we do to negotiate new contracts?
We just fly airplanes and that is all. You need to make some call to that
great Union you call ALPA. Yes we signed contracts but remember
majority rules.
Look at Comair F/O's take a 20% pay cut while CPT's take 13%.
How is this fair?
Selling out the F/O's is Alpa's past, present and future. Were you a part
of that?

 

[surplus1]

It seems to boil down to that if you are a regional lifer for any reason then you should support the RJDC. If you someday hope to get on with a major then you should oppose the RJDC.

If that is your true understanding you have convinced me of just one thing: You don't understand at all.

 

[surplus1]

Look at Comair F/O's take a 20% pay cut while CPT's take 13%.
How is this fair?
Selling out the F/O's is Alpa's past, present and future. Were you a part
of that?

You are correct in saying that it is not fair. I think however, that you should look at why and how that came to pass.

If I'm not mistaken Comair was the 1st regional to establish FO pay at 60% of Captain pay. That was a major effort of the contract we signed in 1994, after 3 years of battle and one failed TA that was voted down.

Since that time, many other regional pilot groups, both in and out of ALPA, have signed contracts that included higher rates for captains at the expense of lower rates for FO's. Why did they do this? Because they decided that it didn't matter what FO's were paid because within a year or two they would all "upgrade" to captain anyway.

At Comair we knew that rapid upgrades would end and that double-digit expansion of the airline could not continue indefinetly. Additionaly, we did not see our little airline as a stepping-stone to another place. However, our fellow pilot groups were growning faster than we were and did not agree. A majority of them set the "precedent" of paying little or nothing to FO's and weighting their contracts in favor of captains. That wasn't new, they had been doing it for a long time. Back in '88 we also did it at CMR, based on the foolish idea that if you weren't here 3 years it was ok to pay you nothing. We outgrew that thinking at CMR but most of our peer groups did not (and still haven't).

Part of that thinking was directly related to the concept that their jobs were just "stepping stones" to the mainline so it didn't really matter. That idea also applied to the "captains" who, it was believed, would soon "move on" to bigger and better things at some "real" airline. Where do you think the "how long is the upgrade" question and the "1000 PIC" come from?

The attitude was fostered and promulgated by the ALPA as part of the second-class status affixed to "commuter pilots" throughout the organization. The ALPA big-wigs, all mainline pilots, sold that concept lock, stock and barrel to a majority of the union leaders of regional carriers, and the latter bought it. It ran hand-in-hand with the "flow-through" concept fostered and promoted by the ALPA.

Comair and later ASA, rejected the flow-through concept, recognizing that it was actually nothing more than engineered furlough protection for mainline pilots, at our expense and would never happen unless the agreement totally favored them. We were thought to be fools for not buying it. Well, what happened at Eagle proves who the fools really were. That however, didn't prevent the powers in ALPA for despising CMR and ASA for seeing through their scheme. I will never forget my astonishment when the MEC Chairman of Eagle actually received an award from the President of ALPA, for signing a 16 year contract with atrocious terms and a flow-through agreement that was completely one-sided in favor of the pilots of American Airlines, who were not even represented by ALPA. The Eagle pilots are still chafing under that lousy agreement, and every other "regional" was negatively affected by it.

Ironically the ALPA president now decries "pay to play" while over his entire presidency he has fostered policies that helped bring it into being.

Today the stepping-stone concept is still firmly rooted in many regional carriers who still have not figured out that there is no where to step to with thousands of mainline pilots on furlough. ALPA however, came up with a new idea to replace the flow through concept. They called it Jets-for-Jobs and invented a flow-back to the left seat, forced it on a variety of regionals, and didn't hesitate to trash regional seniority in the process. In other words, they stole the captain jobs from the regional carriers wherever they had the chance to do it and the idea is fully supported by ALPA.

Not only were they willing to take the captain jobs by force, they also fostered the generation of alter-ego companies that would make it possible for them to do so, which in turn forced regional pilot groups to accept sub-standard contracts in an effort to protect themselves. A classic demonstration of a labor union favoring some of its members at the expense of others.

Comair's 2001 strike further improved pay and benefits for both captains and FOs flying small jets. We paid a big price to get it. Several regionals followed suit including ACO, AWAC and Horizon. Others, faced with ALPA's alter-ego threat, had to capitulate (MES, CHQ, TSA). Today TSA is not only burdened by J4J, it also faces an alter ego and ALPA is powerless to defend against it, despite lame speeches and photo-ops by the ALPA president.

A few months later U and UAL went bankrupt. Many regional carriers, notably SKYW (with its "common rate" up to 99 seats) , AWAC, ACO, PDT, ALG, PSA, rushed to take completely unnecessary concessions in an effort to save business or get more business from the bankrupt carriers. Others like MES and CHQ were forced to settle for little in order to protect themselves against alter-ego airlines created either by ALPA scope policy or its jets-for-jobs program. ALPA made zero effort as a union to prevent the slide. In fact it encouraged it.

ALL of those actions severly undercut the Comair contract. USAir agreed to fly the EMB-170 for 1st year Eagle pay rates. Before long JBlue imposed EMB-190 pay rates to compete with USAir. The straw that broke the camels back. There is just no way that Comair could sustain alone its CL-700 pay rates while force to compete with much lower rates everywhere else.

As Delta went into bankruptcy itself and took Comair with it, Delta pilots assisted by ALPA are actively bidding to fly similar equipment for rates equal to or less than Comair pay rates. No surprise there. The truth is that behind the scenes the Delta pilots, assisted by ALPA, have been doing everything in their power to obtain the transfer of 70-seat flying from ASA and CMR to themselves. They may deny it publicly, but the evidence is there and one day it will be exposed for what it is.

Given that environment Comair pilots have been unable to defend their contract. We are forced to accept the pattern created by others or cease to exist. It's that simple.

Well, we have finally accepted the concessions and we can now "match" the low-balling created by others. For this we are severly criticized by the very people who for the last five years have done NOTHING but undercut our contract in every quarter. They are now angry because WE accepted concessions, and may have prevented them from eagerly picking up the pieces of our airline with a smile on their face.

This new contract to which Comair pilots have agreed by a bery narrow margin is NOT a negotiated agreement. It is a take-it-or-leave-it ultimatum imposed by a bankrupt carrier that is the sole owner of our airline. This is not a voluntary agreement, it is a coerced agreement.

I'm sorry that we could not hold our contract or maintain our FO pay ratio but I'm not ashamed. I know who helped to bring this about, one-by-one and as a whole. Yes, I'm angry but I'm not angry at the Comair pilots who voted YES or the Comair pilots who voted NO. I know where my anger is rightly placed and it is not in Comair.

 

[737 Pylt]

I can say two things in response. 1) A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. 2) Out of the mouths of babes.

You'd do yourself a greater favor if you confined your remarks to the perils of PFT.

This coming from the mouth of the GRANDFATHER airline that perfected the PFT concept!
737

 

[737 Pylt]

The only way ALPA, and our profession, will be repaired is if the RJDC is successful in forcing ALPA to allow all its members to participate and enjoy the fruits of ALPA's representation.

Fins:
While you make a truly valid point, there is no way that your pilot group is going to have a say in my pilots' group PWA...Hence, that is why I agree that the DFR is a VALID point. That being said, the rjdc is not the answer!

ALPA has obviously been going down the wrong road. Everyone seems willing to admit this fact. So why not return ALPA to its roots, when the union fought alter ego and tried to take pilot wages out of the competition between our employers? Why not allow all of ALPA's members to participate in a stronger union?

Because, like it has been said here before, too many pilots pointing the finger at everyone else! There was even one poster blaming this all on legacy pilots...Man alive!

I support the RJDC as the best possible way to save our union.

You better, I hear Haber's house at the Hamptons needs a new roof, and the lease is up on his benz!
737

 

[CarjCapt]

<While you make a truly valid point, there is no way that your pilot group is going to have a say in my pilots' group PWA...Hence, that is why I agree that the DFR is a VALID point. That being said, the rjdc is not the answer!>


Ok, oh wise one, please tell us what you would do to prevent you from having a say in my pilots group PWA. If DFR is valid and RJDC isn't the answer what, pray tell, would you do to prevent your pilot group from screwing with my PWA by remote control and visa versa?

 

[180ToTheMarker]

Dan Ford and his crew have been busy lately preparing. The Court, rather than honor ALPA's request to delay, actually sped up the discovery schedule.

Sped up the discovery schedule? Wasn't this lawsuit filed in 2000? Wow....blinding speed there.

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

Thanks for the update. Some of us do appreciate it.

 

[737 Pylt]

Ok, oh wise one, please tell us what you would do to prevent you from having a say in my pilots group PWA. If DFR is valid and RJDC isn't the answer what, pray tell, would you do to prevent your pilot group from screwing with my PWA by remote control and visa versa?

I didn't say I had an answer. But the rjdc isn't about representation...Its about greed. IF they were really seeking fair representation, they wouldn't have sought the rediculous amount of $$ in their lawsuit... Believe me, I'm no fan of ALPA.
737

 

[Catbird]

"I hear Haber's house at the Hamptons needs a new roof, and the lease is up on his benz!"

Habers house is the little one behind Duane Worthless's summer retreat. Duane would need therapy if he had to transport in a Benz. Nothing but the best for the POS, Rolls Royce is Diamond Duane's taste. Duane and Vegas with ALPA credit cards a match made in heaven. Maybe the Alpa BOD could be in Monte Carlo next year? Or better yet Tahiti for maximum working atmosphere.

 

[surplus1]

I didn't say I had an answer. But the rjdc isn't about representation...Its about greed. IF they were really seeking fair representation, they wouldn't have sought the rediculous amount of $$ in their lawsuit... Believe me, I'm no fan of ALPA.
737

Funny how one or two words can change an entire perspective. You claim the RJDC is about greed. I agree; what you've failed to do is identify who's greed we're talking about so let me help you .... it is yours.

The RJDC is an attempt to prevent your greed from dominating the lives of our group. It comes as no surprise that you object to that, it's historical. The Plantation owner always believed that he had a "right" to own his slaves and to determine the course of their lives as well as when they should die. The problem is that plantations are passe and so is the philosophy of their owners. To make your position even more ludicrous is the fact that you don't really own the plantation and your never did. That idea is just one of your many illusions. You have no legitimate "authority"; you merely seek to usurp it. When the court makes its final decision you will learn that. Meanwhile you will continue to believe that you are the ordained "masters" of others.

We all have a different perspective. As they say, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." You will continue to believe that you have a "right" to dictate our destiny. We will continue our attempt to prevent you from doing that.

Never the twain shall meet!