RJDC letter to DW

[FlyComAirJets]

Never ever said that I was willing to fly mainline jets for less than mainline rates. Will even go farther and say that I STILL would not do it if offered, that's your job. So you keep your grimey hands off my RJ, and I wont go after your Boeings. How's that for a deal?

 

[BenderGonzales]

Now when you say that you won't go after my Boeing...

...does that also mean that you won't go after any Brazilian or perhaps Canadian airplanes that carry just as many people as my Boeing?

I mean... gosh... some of these Brazilian and Canadian airplanes not only carry the same number of people as my Boeing, but they also go just as fast and just as high...

I just want to be perfectly clear what i'm agreeing to here...

 

[JoeMerchant]

I think its just the opposite. You are the one who holds yourself in low regard. Why would you be willing to fly a mainline jet for less than the mainline pilots? Cause thats the only way outsourcing makes sense.

Michael,
I will bet you that mainline pilot's will soon underbid the CMR and Horizon rate to fly the 70 seater jets. In fact, the USAirways pilot's already have. Tell you what, if you don't underbid me on 70 seaters, I won't underbid you on 100+ seaters. If you do continue along the MidAtlantic underbid path, then I will do what is best for me.

Joe

 

[JoeMerchant]

Never ever said that I was willing to fly mainline jets for less than mainline rates. Will even go farther and say that I STILL would not do it if offered, that's your job. So you keep your grimey hands off my RJ, and I wont go after your Boeings. How's that for a deal?

Well said! The USAirways pilots underbid most regional pilots on the E170s at MidAtlantic. My what a tangled web ALPA has woven!

Joe

 

[SlapShot]

Granted I do not know anything about the RJDC or whatever the hell it is. But I am guessing it has to do with ALPA representing Delta, Comair, and ASA.

If pilots are so unhappy with their union representation, why doesn't some regional start a new union? Something like a Regional Airline Pilots Association (RAPA)? Then they would only have the interests of the regionals in mind when contracts are negotiated. They would pay more attention to the current situations at the various regional airlines and therefore would be able to do a MUCH better job representing them.

I know I am not that smart so someone else must have thought about this before, I just wonder why we have never seen anything like this

 

[FlyingDawg]

With the sale of ASA how does that effect the RJDC deal? I would guess it gets somewhat waterdown.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Granted I do not know anything about the RJDC or whatever the hell it is. But I am guessing it has to do with ALPA representing Delta, Comair, and ASA.

If pilots are so unhappy with their union representation, why doesn't some regional start a new union? Something like a Regional Airline Pilots Association (RAPA)? Then they would only have the interests of the regionals in mind when contracts are negotiated. They would pay more attention to the current situations at the various regional airlines and therefore would be able to do a MUCH better job representing them.

I know I am not that smart so someone else must have thought about this before, I just wonder why we have never seen anything like this

They won't leave because they think they can sue their way to a more lucrative career with larger jets. Pretty soon you will see finny, or surplus on here pounding their fist on their keyboard saying that they are good enough to fly these jets too, and darn it, ALPA needs to represent them as well. Believe me when I say that these people feel slighted, they are mad about it, and they want to get "even" with those mainline pilots who dare suggest that they are not as good of pilots. If you look past their hoopla, however, the facts of where the growth has been, who has taken the largest pay cuts, etc, you will see that it is the Delta pilots who might be in a position to sue over misrepresentation. Anyway, make no mistake about it, the FCJ guys is the perfect example. Although he hints that he will do the right thing and refuse larger a/c for less pay, the truth is that he would do it in a heartbeat. They all would. They are not what you would call "big picture" people. A any rate, I am


Glad to be gone

 

[michael707767]

Michael,
I will bet you that mainline pilot's will soon underbid the CMR and Horizon rate to fly the 70 seater jets. In fact, the USAirways pilot's already have. Tell you what, if you don't underbid me on 70 seaters, I won't underbid you on 100+ seaters. If you do continue along the MidAtlantic underbid path, then I will do what is best for me.

Joe

Hmm, I'll take that bet. Here at Delta at least, I think the 70 seates are gone to us, no matter how cheaply we offered to fly them. So I don't think we will even try. In the end I think our mainline pay will be so low, they can effectively fly larger airplanes anyway. As far as USAir goes, I agree with you. I think its shameful what they did there, and frankly brought us all down.
Michael

 

[~~~^~~~]

If you look past their hoopla, however, the facts of where the growth has been, who has taken the largest pay cuts, etc, you will see that it is the Delta pilots who might be in a position to sue over misrepresentation.

They all would. They are not what you would call "big picture" people. A any rate, I am

Glad to be gone

You are correct, the mainline pilots have been hurt the most as a result of ALPA's misrepresentation. It amazes me that the junior mainline guys do not support what the RJDC has been trying to achieve. However, their MEC lies to them and like sheep they bleat and walk closer to the cliffs.

The big picture is that a company's flying must be locked to pilots on that company's seniority list. Alter ego outsourcing is bad, period.

But, if a major MEC wants to outsource flying that it does not want to perform, then it should take its hands off - allowing the regional pilots to lock in scope with the entity that has operational control over the code.

The major pilots are going to get swallowed up by the flying they have outsourced. The CRJ700 and E170 are already being flown by mainline pilots at sub standard wages. They are in direct competition with the same pilots their MEC's allowed the flying to be bid out to.

The only way to restore this industry is for the union to deactivate the remote control box installed in the RJ's by the mainline MEC's. If the regional guys could negotiate, with the same level of representation we would be in a position to force a win / win on this level of flying.

A level playing field raises all of our game. I don't care of the level field is all "Delta flying is performed by Delta pilots," or the "Delta MEC has no right to control flying it does not perform." Either way pilots will be able to glue the company to their services and that glue is what raises the profession.

~~~^~~~

 

[~~~^~~~]

With the sale of ASA how does that effect the RJDC deal? I would guess it gets somewhat waterdown.

Actually no. If you want this in order of occurrence:
1. ALPA wants to represent the SkyWest pilots. Why would SkyWest pilots vote for ALPA representation when they can see that ALPA misrepresented the ASA pilots?
2. The RJDC litigation was filed to protect contract 96 scope. In case you don't have a copy handy, ASA was operating 105 seat jets and had rights to unlimited 70 seaters. The E170 / 190 would be an idea airframe under CY96 scope.
3. The base premise of the RJDC litigation is that ALPA should return to its old school ways of binding a company to its employees. Allowing pilots equal representation would provide the tools to stop alter ego whipsaw. Once alter ego whipsaw disappears there is much less incentive for airlines to operate their alter ego carriers. This is a good thing. Let me give you and example where ALPA actually did the right thing.

At Mesa, they tried to run three certificates with three different pilot groups - Mesa, CC Air and Freedom. The ideal was to create a non union and a sub standard carrier within a carrier. ALPA stopped it. We should care because stopping whipsaw on any level promotes the elevation of the profession - better working conditions and pay.

Look around the World. The nations with representative republics are good places to do business. Apartied societies ruled by despots generally are poor places to live and work.

The RJDC wants to end ALPA Apartied. I hope they do it before ALPA goes the way of South Africa.

~~~^~~~