RJDC in a Nutshell

[FlyComAirJets]

Nice try, Mike, but your own analogy is flawed. If Comair operated 35 seat aircraft, our inclusive scope policy requires the company to either staff them with Comair pilots or merge with the other pilot group via the time tested Alleghenny-Mohawk protocol. The Delta pilots, whose MEC vigorously opposed any kind of merger with ASA and Comair, instead use their exclusionary scope (courageously contrived during our strike) to financially cripple the aircraft that we currently fly and that they have apparently no interest in themselves.

But it is not you that is being faulted for your myopia in the legal arena, it is OUR union.

 

[StaySeated]

lets go back to a happy place...

So I bought the chocolate bar and it had the winning ticket, I just don't know who I should bring to the chocolate factory for the big tour....

 

[surplus1]

Are you implying that scope is no good unless you are currently operating a specific aircraft?

No, michael, I am not implying that and do not intend to imply that or anything even close. You are letting your frustrations run away with you imagination.

Bottom line is the RJDC folks are trying to gut scope so they can fly aircraft they do no currently fly.

That is not so Michael. I don't know what you mean by "gutting scope", but IF that means get rid of scope alltogether, the answer is NO. That is not what the RJDC seeks. Scope is an essential component of every labor agreement and the RJDC both knows and supports that.

There is legitimate scope and there is illegitimate scope. Only the latter is opposed.

You have changed what you used to tell me. You used to say that you had no problem with 70 seat scope, just to any limits on the 70 seaters and below. But now, suddenly you are saying that you have a right to any aircraft that we do not operate, scope or not. What has changed?

I say again, you are misinterpreting what I have said. There is no change in my position.

First you must understand that I am not an official spokesperson for the RJDC. I speak for myself. I know quite a bit about what the RJDC is trying to do, but I don't run it and I don't make its decisions. I merely support the effort. I also consistently attempt to avoid saying anything that I know to be at odds with RJDC positions.

It is still my belief that if Delta's scope was returned to what existed in the 1996 PWA, the dispute over scope would end. I also continue to believe that is consistent with the RJDC's objectives.

However, that would not end the dispute with the ALPA over representation. The ALPA is permitting an external MEC to negotiate the job security of ASA and Comair pilots, without their consent. The ALPA is doing the very same thing with respect to several other regional airlines, especially those associated with USAirways, NWA and UAL. That action violates the DFR. ALPA must take action to prevent that in the future and to ensure that the careers of regional pilots are not used as bargaining chips in mainline pilot negotiations. Until that is changed by ALPA, the litigation will continue. This is not a lawsuit against the Delta pilots or the Delta MEC. The action is against the ALPA.

Both that issue and the scope issue come from the same cause, i.e., the failure of the union to represent fairly. That is what has to be resolved.

When the judge dismissed several counts of the original lawsuit, many mainline pilots were exuberant. They were premature with their exuberance and wrong in their analysis. In fact the only thing the judge really did was recognize the core issue, fair representation. He realized that the resolution of that core issue was the key to the entire suit. He in fact dismissed nothing, he merely consolidated the issues, upheld the complaint and set the matter for trial.

It is still possible, as with every case, to settle out of court. I firmly believe that will NOT happen unless the ALPA agrees to changes in policy that remove permanently the cause of this lititation and preclude its recurrence in the future.

This is much bigger than who flys what airplane. Until you elect to realize that basic truth, all the talk about airplanes and scope clauses is wasted rhetoric.

I say again, my original position on the 70-seat flying has not changed. However, if no action is taken to return to the original status, the longer it lasts the more becomes fair game.

As the saying goes, "all is fair in love and war". This is a war of survival. The war was declared with the full agreement and support of the ALPA, by the Delta MEC, which launched a direct attack on the careers of Comair and ASA pilots and has continued its assault since day one. Until the attacking force is completely withdrawn, every legal strategy will be deployed against it.

If that means that we have to move from a position of defense to one of counter attack, it will happen. Our survival is at stake and we find life as an "occupied" province of the Delta MEC untenable.
You must withdraw your forces. If you do not, they may well be persued beyond our own borders in the effort to prevent future attacks. That statement does contain an inference, which you may read as you see fit.

That is not a change in my policy or beliefs. I've been warning of that possibility for at least two years. If you're interested, search my old posts to FlyDeltasJets and you will see the repeated warnings of a potential bidding war.

To date that bidding war is confined to competition between regional pilot groups, which is not what I was predicting What I am predicting is a bidding war between major and regional.

While I do think that would be a disaster for airline pilots, I am not blind to the danger. Unfortunately, most mainline pilots seem to be.

You might want to take a second look at the probabilities. Unless your policies change, the worst may well come true. Hopefully, I'm wrong about that.

 

[acarpe3448]

I don't know about anyone else, but I sure get sick of reading Surplus1's thesis length answers. For all those that feel the same way, let me try to paraphrase him.

1. We still want all of the 50 seaters we can get.

2. Give us all the 70 seaters we want.

3. We think we are entitled to all the 90 seater, 100seater aircraft ordered in the future.

4. We want to get rid of the planned percentages. If Delta Pilots can not accept low wages like we are willing to fly for than we should be able to fly 50% 60% 70% of all Delta flying.

5. I could never get a job at a major airline. I was to lazy to apply, I did not have a college degree, so being very senior where I am now, I'll try to change the system so that I can take what I did not deserve. All those wanting on board, please join in! www.takeyourjobaway.com

 

[jarhead]

acarpe3448

You lose most of your credibility when you resort to hyperbole (that's a lie, if you don't know the meaning) Your point #5 about Surplus 1 is so far off base, that it hardly is worth responding to.

But I will.

Surplus is a college graduate.

Surplus has flown for a "major airline"

Surplus has flown as an Air Force officer.

Surplus has flown international, four engine transport aircraft.


It's fine to vent and argue your point, but for God's sake,
don't invent non truths. You destroy all your credibility when you do that.

 

[acarpe3448]

Thats great, good for Surplus1. But I think I do have somewhat of a right to be a little upset. Try furlough for two years, try loosing your house, try living on $700 a month state unemployment for 5 months, try supporting a family of three on that amount of money. Try watching over 1000 of your airline's pilots furloughed for years and watching ASA and Comair get over a billion dollars worth of new aircraft, watch Comair and ASA hire around 1000 pilots and have Comair refuse to even think about a Delta pilot flying right seat based on stupid political garbage. I find it very difficult to see how Delta scope has done any damage to the careers of your pilots. Was it Comair's contract that paid them more than anyone else, was it the massive number of new airplanes that you all have received, was it the growth and stability that you all enjoy. Don't talk to me about credibility when I hear non stop about the RJDC objectives. It's some of this groups credibility that I question. The RJDC is trying to get equal treatment with ALPA. That great! I support you all the way. You are trying to cut certain parts from all scope clauses, mainly what size of aircraft and howmany of them you can fly. But I have yet to hear from the RJDC to admit what the end result will be. Delta transfering more and more flying over to connection. You all will fly far cheaper, and expect far fewer benefits. Delta management would love that. But what will your objective lead to? Mainline shrinking and shrinking until all we do is international, and you all get the rest. That is truly warped thinking. I have heard the argument that if we got rid of scope or merged than none of our pilots would be furloughed. I agree. But I for one do not want to go back to the right seat of a CRJ for low wages. Don't get me wrong, the CRJ is a very cool jet, and all of the connection pilots are every bit of an airline pilot as anyone at Delta. The point is I want growth at Mainline, I want jobs at Mainline for as many ASA pilots as we can get. The problem in my eyes is that you all can not begin to understand what will happen if we follow this path. The continued shrinking of mainline airlines, the continued drop in the value of a longterm airline pilot career, and the eventual outsourcing of all our jobs to pilots from India or China where they are willing to fly that awsome CRJ for minimum wage and a green card. Think about from all sides.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

Surplus1 is also a RETIRED Comair MEC Chairman, unless he gave the handle to someone else. And I agree, cut out the thesis length diatribes. If you can't give your position in a few lines, it must not hold much water .

 

[jarhead]

Oh yeah, short little sound bite snippets hold so much more information. Simple sentences for simple minds, I guess. Kind of like a politicians advertisement. All the truth you need to know, on a bumper sticker!

 

[Palerider957]

Chill brother, chill.......

Acarpe,

I understand your frustration, and I know how tragic losing ones job can be. This while you watch your friends go through the same thing, while DCI grows.

Please understand one MAJOR thing: Comair and ASA are NOT your enemy. All of our fates are closely linked, if DAL tanks, then ASA/CMR will be caught in the tornado as well. If ASA is forced into a strike (probably a 50/50 bet right now), it will likely send DAL to BK.

Most ASA/CMR pilots just want a chance to improve their life style, and for some, to get out of poverty (literally). We do want to grow and expand, all the while improving our work agreements. This is VERY challenging given the current work environment.
Mostly we just come to work, fly hard, and make a pretty good $ for the company--then we go home.

When we talk about who will fly what aircraft, and what size these 70-110 seat planes will be, it's all just an exercise. None us has the inside track and we can only speculate--this sometimes gets venemous.

We do have some bitter, super-senior guys who want all they can grab. Most of us want better representation and recognition that we aren't flying Bandits from MCN to ATL anymore. We want to make the best deal we can for ourselves. We'd love to do it on friendly terms with the DAL pilot group, but we'll do it on our own if necessary.

The REAL danger lurking out there is the likes of Airtran. When those 737's show up their already ferocious competition will intensify. Lets not waste energy throwing rocks at each other.

I WANT Delta to succeed, I want you back at work, with me joining DAL right behind you.

Good luck.....

 

[surplus1]

But I think I do have somewhat of a right to be a little upset. Try furlough for two years, try loosing your house, try living on $700 a month state unemployment for 5 months, try supporting a family of three on that amount of money.

It may surprise you but I understand your frustration and the difficulty of your furlough. I've been furloughed myself, more than once. I've had my Fortune 500 corporate flight department go out of the airplane business overnight, and my airline do the same. I've had to fly for scumbag outfits as a consequence, borrow money to feed my kid, drive a junk car, have my paycheck bounce and base myself in bumfuk Egypt, literally. It is not pleasant and it did not make me happy.

I've seen my buddies lose their jobs and their pensions, not just temporarily but permanently, due to the failure of their airlines. Companies like Braniff, Eastern, Pan American, TWA and now USAir and United.

Eventually I found another job and recovered my losses. I am not alone in what happened to me, and you are not alone it what is happening to you. Unfortunately it is a part of the business that we both chose. If this is what you want to do for a living, you have to learn to roll with the punches.

There is however a difference in the reactions I see today and those of yesterday. I don't remember the whining that is prevalent now, and I don't remember anyone affixing blame for their plight on persons who did nothing to cause it.

Their are thousands of pilots furloughed from American, United, USAirways, NorthWest and a bunch of little airlines. Somehow and for some reason they aren't writing on these bulletin boards constantly complaining about themselves. I assume they are out doing something about it.

I have friends at USAirways who are furloughed, after 15 years of service and others there who have lost their pensions after working for more than 30 years. They are not happy, but they are not whining.

Tell me young man, what is it that is unique about Delta pilots that makes you believe, after less than 4 years of service, that you have been more wronged than anyone else who has suffered the cyclical nature of the airline business?

Your Company has perhaps been more successful and more stable than most others. You've never had a strike, NWA has suffered more than I can count, United several. You've always had the upper hand in all of your mergers, swallowing all or parts of others and not always giving their just deserts. You've never been bankrupt, CAL has been there more than once, and suffered more at the hand of a robber baron than you can even imagine. TWA, an icon in the industry, has been bled to death by another robber and is gone forever. PanAm is another legend lost. UAL is there now and lost their contract, USAir has been decimated and may not survive at all, they lost the jobs, their contract and their pensions, American has been forced to give up more than a decade of gains.

Your company is struggling for what is really the first time in its history and you've lost a thousand jobs, (only 10% of your number) yet you remain the highest paid in the industry and the best positioned of all the legacy carriers. Neverthless you're crying like no others, when in fact those of you that are furloughed are barely more than new hires.

You're complaining about DCI, which is NOT the cause of your furloughs. As a matter of fact your company would probably be in bankruptcy itself, if it did not have those regional jets to help sustain its markets. You are not flying those little jets because you yoursleves chose to exclude rather than embrace them. That sir, is the fault of noone other than yourselves.

Your frustration with the unfortunate circumstance is justified, buy your anger is misplaced and directed at people who have played no role in causing your difficulty and whose existence is an asset to your company.

If you must place blame for your circumstance, put it in the right place. Blame the terrorists that attacked us and struck a monumental blow to an already faltering economy. Blame your management for its inability to save the company without reducing its size. Blame the government for not preventing it all, but don't blame fellow pilots, none of whom have anything at all to do with what has happened.

Recognize that being a Delta pilot, entitles you to no more than anyone else in our business. We are all in this together. Some of us have been more fortunate than others for the time being, but that is no more than the luck of the draw. The time will come when those that have not yet experienced the diffulty that you face now, will have to deal with something similar themselves.

Pull yourself together and face the problem. Don't allow it to make you bitter and lose your sense of good judgement. A furlough is not the end of the world. The company will recover. It may take a while and it may get worse before it gets better, but with time things will work out. Your position is not the greatest at this moment, but there are many others in situations that are far more dangerous to their careers. Just suppose for a moment that you had lost your medical, instead of being furloughed ... what would you do then?

If it helps you to be angry at me, go ahead, its OK. I don't hold it against you.

As for the RJDC, it is OK if you don't agree, but it will not cause any of the things you worry about. Compared to the other problems facing the industry as a whole, the RJDC movement is a bump on a log. It isn't going to ruin your career or that of anyone else. The very best it can do is prevent your peers from ruining the careers of others.

DCI will not takeover Delta and neither will ASA or Comair. In the words of my former CEO, "this tail ain't going to wag that dog anytime soon." Think about it.

Rest easy my friend. I wish you only the best.

 

[acarpe3448]

I appreciate your comment but I think you have misread my last post. I do not hold myself out as being wronged alone or compared to any other pilot in this mess. I have never said that one time. Yes I will be glad to mention just how bad it has sucked, but I will not suggest that there are others out there who are not suffering even worse than me. Ever since 9-11 I have tried to look at the situation from all sides and I can tell you that loosing my job temporaliy, and loosing my home is not the end of the world. I can think of four other airline crews that lost everything.

As far as the company probably being in bancruptcy if it were not for the RJs. I humbly disagree. If you look at the track record since 9-11, as the # of Rjs increased, as more and more mainline flying was transfered to connection, as the planed percentages were just thrown out of the contract, what has been the result. Delta has continued to loose more and more money. Things are not getting significantly better because of connection. I agree that ASA and Comair may be profitable although neither of us know that for certain

"You are not flying those little jets because you yoursleves chose to exclude rather than embrace them. That sir, is the fault of noone other than yourselves."

Once again go back and read my post, I do not want to go back to flying an RJ. I spent 7 years at a regional already. I really do not want to go to work at Comair either. If you take a poll of the furloughed pilots you will find that the majority of them are not interested in coming to work at either place.

To close and I am sorry I went on so long everyone. Once again I have not heard anyone that supports the RJDC admit that the end result will be more and more transfering of flying over to connection and a big loss of jobs at the mainline. It's a fact, you all know it, but you can't seem to admit it.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Acarpe,

I genuinely feel you pain, having been laid off several times by my previous employer followed by the despair of Chapter 11 and then 7. My best advice to weather it through these tough times is hold your family tight, visit the church of your choice often, and keep in mind that this will someday resolve itself.

It took me a long time to understand the words from a pilot much wiser than me that sooner or later, an airplane becomes just another airplane and a flying job becomes just a job. I used to think that meant that someday we we all lose our passion for aviation and that what we get paid is the sum total of what the value of our job is. Only years later did I realize that what he meant was the size of the aircraft does not necessarily determine one's satisfaction level. A pilot can find joy flying any sized aircraft -- remember your first solo cross country flight?

And that monetary renumeration is not the gauge for happiness. Even the lowest regarded regional pays an adequate wage that can sustain a family if you play your cards right ... and clip a lot of coupons.

During our strike we all had to face the possibility of having to seek employment elsewhere. What I learned from that was not to fear management's scare tactics and that I was not too good to fly any aircraft. If that meant going back to flight instructing (which I enjoyed very much) in Cessnas or Pipers, then so be it.

When you say that you don't want to go back to flying RJs or fly at ASA or Comair, then so be it, that is your choice. Is it really worth losing your house over? Why obsolete yourself?

As to the economics of the RJ, ultimately the market will determine it's value. Since we cannot even agree whether it is a profitable aircraft, we shall just have to leave it the future to decide. I appreciate your candor when you say that you and most furloughees don't want to fly the RJ because that has been the RJDC's point all along -- that mainline doesn't want to fly the RJ and that they don't want regionals to fly them either.

Best of luck.

 

[N2264J]

As far as the company probably being in bancruptcy if it were not for the RJs. I humbly disagree. If you look at the track record since 9-11, as the # of Rjs increased, as more and more mainline flying was transfered to connection, as the planed percentages were just thrown out of the contract, what has been the result. Delta has continued to loose more and more money. Things are not getting significantly better because of connection.

Reverse engineered logic. Reminds me of the example where you have two clocks keeping good time. One has an hourly chime but no hands, the other has hands but no chime. When the big hand on the one reaches 12, the other clock always chimes. Cause and effect? An uninformed observer might deduce that when the hands of one clock hit 12, it causes the other to chime. Of course, it doesn't.


Comair and ASA are the reasons there aren't 2,000 Delta furloughees instead of 1,000. US Airways and United had the most restrictive scope limits on the airframe and they were the first two into bankruptcy because they couldn't compete. Delta would have lost significantly more money if it weren't for the CL-65.

 

[acarpe3448]

Some of you all are being very considerate about how bad it sucks for us being on furlough for so long. It really sucks holding on for two years just waiting for the rpm #s to trigger a mandatory recall. Here we are, looks like we hit the required # and it looks like the company will do what it has to do to keep us locked out. We had an agreement, and just as I thought the company is going to screw us again.

I respect your opinions, everyone has them. It is obvious that we will never agree, and that is fine also. I will listen to your beliefs that the RJDC will only help out my career, and just try to at least listen to the other side. It looks like that is the best that we will ever be able to do. It's really sad!!!!

 

[FlyComAirJets]

What is saddest of all to me is that we can't seem to act like a union. Just think about what that word means and why pilots all sooner or later organize either through national unions like the Teamsters and ALPA or in-house like SWPA and post-Lorenzo Continental(!). Something has turned our natural kinship against each other.

And I don't even think we have to agree on everything to work this out, but we should agree that the best possible solution involves working together as equals. JMHO.

Take care.