RJDC 6/26 update

[JohnDoe]

You mean your phantom "Jets for jobs" program?

Or the flying that is in mainline's contract to do. A contract signed by NW management.

 

[surplus1]

Fins,

Your posts are begining to worry me some. It sounds like you may be willing to give up and throw in the towel. I think that's premature. While I don't pretend to know what you want or what your pilot group wants, whatever it is should be worth fighting for. Your adversaries have always had the "upper hand" and your union has always been against your interests. That will never change unless you are willing to do whatever it takes to make it change. Yes, you may lose the battle, but you will surely lose the war if you just give up. Keep the faith.

Surplus :

Our MEC has been in the love in mode with John Malone because he "understands" our issues and the "BSIC is for real now." We are also given the message that "ALPA is a Democracy and we can only do the best we can within the system by coalition building." Our MEC still has not recovered from the fact that they were right on the PID, but the politics were wrong. Now they are pragmatists.

That amazes me. Malone "understands" your issues? Isn't Malone the same man that negotiated to stop your growth, limit your equipment and restrict the rest of your flying? If your MEC truly feels that he "understands" your issues about all I can say is that I don't understand your issues or your MEC.

The "BSIC is for real now" -- what does that mean? BSIC is an interesting acronym. It stands for "Bull Sh*t Infested Conundrum". It's objective is to obscure issues, laden you with conjecture and create delay. Its only purpose has always been to serve as a placebo for the ignorant while providing the time frame for your continued and further exploitation.

ALPA a democracy? Yet another oxymoron. ALPA is not a democracy it is an oligarchy. It creates the ilusion of democracy in order to provide advantage to the few that actually control it. Its structure contains no checks and balances, no independent process of revue or oversight and no independent executive power. It is designed to foster patronage and enhance the advantages of the powerful. It offers no gaurantees or protection of even the most basic rights of the minority. It is perhaps one of the most perverse examples of democracy that one could muster.

I expect our MEC will be given the same tremendously difficult choice faced by the US Air Express MEC's - either to go along with J4J with "super seniority" in exchange for a flow through, or, be left to bid amongst any and all wanna be DCI carriers for airplanes under a J4J scheme ( and likely being shut out ).

This could happen and it is highly probable that it will be attempted, by the very "friends" that allegedly "understand" you. If it does take place, my MEC will have the same choices as yours. It is left to be seen whether these MEC's will give in to the political pressures or rise to the occasion and defend the rights of their membership. It is left also to be seen whether they will include the membership in the decision making process directly or whether they will decide for us, what is best for us, in the typical "democratic" ALPA style.

We already know what the institution to which our MEC's belong will do and should expect no change from its already demonstrated modus operandi. Hopefully our MEC's will not be duped into allowing their own destruction. If you're a Star Trek fan, then you will recognize the similarities between ALPA and the Borg. "You [we] will be assimilated; resistance is futile." Well, resistance is always futile -- when you choose not to resist.

In their shoes, I'm not sure what I'd do.... The fact this will be a done deal before the DCI MEC's have any confirmation it has happened just makes it more difficult to address.

"The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer."

Because Malone "understands" your issues you can be assured that the "deal making" that affects you will be done behind the scenes and without the knowledge of our MEC's. That's more of ALPA's democracy. Perhaps the ongoing litigation will keep them at bay, but I suspect they will ignore the advice of their lawyers, take the risk and do as they please. They've always been able to get away with that in the past and will likely assume they can do it again. Arrogance breeds more arrogance. Eventually however, there will be a "day in court" that just might modify their thought processes and turn the tide.

The ASA pilots have a lot bigger fish to fry than their current contract, negotiations are about to go into a completely new paradigm - we are going to be negotiating for the scraps after mainline eats their fill.
~~~^~~~

Anything is possible but I'm not as pessimistic as you are. I will continue to support the defense of our rights and demand that our union act to protect our interests. Whether or not our MEC's decide to get off the political fence and choose to defend what is right, which so far neither one of them has done, I will keep trying until the courts decide against us. I continue to believe that the courts will make the right decision, which will not be in favor of the ALPA.

Best wishes.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,


Any New Aircraft can be negotiated by Dalpa---and their uses can be up to management and Dalpa. Malone has stated that he will not give up jobs---and the only place to grow now it seems is in the 70-100 seat arena. For the right amount of pay cut and the lower wage scale for certain new aircraft (something Dalpa has done before with Delta Express)---Dalpa will get something out of this deal. The NW MEC has stated that anything 70 seats and up will be flown by NW mainline, and you know Dalpa, National Alpa, and even the NW MEC are talking---trying to figure out what to do. We will all eventually take a hit here--because the "economics" have changed. Dalpa has been waiting to negotiate--and now everyone--including the creditors--will be involved.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,

Any New Aircraft can be negotiated by Dalpa---and their uses can be up to management and Dalpa.

General,

I don't know what you mean by "New Aircraft" and I don't want to guess. When you define it I'll comment.

Malone has stated that he will not give up jobs---and the only place to grow now it seems is in the 70-100 seat arena.

Candidly, what Malone says is of about as much interest to me as what I say is of interest to him. Having said that, I don't think the Delta pilots should "give up jobs". I don't know of any pilot group asking you to give up the jobs you already have. Change that number to 71-100 and I'll have no problem with it. That's open territory and you have every right to bargain for it. Of course, so do we.

For the right amount of pay cut and the lower wage scale for certain new aircraft (something Dalpa has done before with Delta Express)---Dalpa will get something out of this deal.

I hope you do get something for whatever you give up. As long as that "something" isn't in my territory, I wish you luck. When it is our turn in the barrel I'm sure we'll take the same approach. You want us to "follow in your footsteps" so it should not bother you when we do.

The NW MEC has stated that anything 70 seats and up will be flown by NW mainline, and you know Dalpa, National Alpa, and even the NW MEC are talking---trying to figure out what to do.

NWA has a long standing contract with a dividing line at 56-seats and an "grandfather exemption" for 36 Avros w/69 seats. If their company buys a new 70-seat airframe they will not be taking anything from anyone, by attempting to maintain the status quo. Whether or not they can hold that line is left to be seen. However, they are not trying to change something "after the fact." That is quite different from what the Delta MEC did and is still trying to do more of.

Yes, I know that ALPA National is trying to figure out how to ensure that only mainline pilots fly 70-seaters; they've been doing it for years. I also know that DMEC has been trying to do the same thing, also for years. There is nothing new about the collusion between you two.

We will all eventually take a hit here--because the "economics" have changed. Dalpa has been waiting to negotiate--and now everyone--including the creditors--will be involved.
Bye Bye--General Lee

Yes sir, the "economics" have changed, even though the President (GWB) keeps telling us that they haven't and it's "better than ever." They're not favorable to anyone right now, especially the legacy carriers. I see reports that your company is now demanding 1 billion dollars from the Delta pilots. I sincerely hope that you will not have to do anything close to that. If true, it's a lot more than their last demand and I can't see how you could do that much. 50% is something I would not want to see. Malone has a lot bigger fish to fry than trying to take the 70-seaters from us. The threat of BK is a lot more onerous than some regional jets (that make money for the company).

It's a very difficult situation and believe it or not I'm really wishing the best for you guys and hoping you can come out of this with a minimum down side for all of you.

I don't exactly know what you mean by "everyone will be involved". As long as it does NOT mean that your MEC will attempt again to negotiate for us or use us as a bargaining chip in your negotiations, I'm ok with that. If and when the company comes to us again, we'll handle our own negotiations, thank you.

I wish the best for you. But, it bothers me that you don't seem to wish the same for us. As long as you see us as a threat to your well being, it is virtually impossible for us to see you as anything but the same.

 

[spinproof]

The General and his ilk are what they are....arrogant aholes! They could have prevented all this years ago with a "simple" staple...But "NO"..defient to end, they still don't get it!

Sin in haste DALPA..repent at leisure...I personally have no simpathy for any of you! You will get what you deserve. PERIOD!

No amount of your tired diatrib will change that.

...anyone know the difference between a porcupine and a BMW full of Delta mainline pilots..........a porcupine has the pricks on the outside!

 

[CTS]

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/040706/delta_pilots_4.html

General, How are you guys going to staff these new 70-100 seaters? You lost 216 last september and now your loosing 300 pilots in June alone. The return of the Furloughed pilots will be to fill your current planes. And why would DAL pilots want to fly RJ's why not buy some 7E7's. Very efficient airplane.

"Delta shares fell 25 cents, or nearly 4 percent, to close at $6.59 in Tuesday trading on the New York Stock Exchange. Lose another $1.60 and DAL will be condidered a Penny stock. (less than 5 a share for those who dont know)

 

[InclusiveScope]

General said:
"Any New Aircraft can be negotiated by Dalpa---and their uses can be up to management and Dalpa."

General,
The negotiatiors may be from "DALPA", but there is no bargaining agent called "DALPA" After the negotiators from "DALPA" agree to something with Delta, the agreement must be signed by ALPA. ALPA is also MY bargaining agent.

You sound like you OWN ALPA. You and I SHOULD be EQUAL members of ALPA.

 

[General Lee]

CTS,


We currently have a 75 hour cap, and all they would have to do is raise it 5-7 hours and a lot of it would be covered. But, Malone has said that he will not eliminate any jobs, so the only place to put the incoming 30 pilots a month is with new aircraft (after a pay cut).

Inclusivescope,

So, if we want to create pay rates for a new 7E7--we would have to run it by your RJDC thugs too, right? Give me a break. We can create pay rates for any NEW aircraft and fly them. If the company agrees to the new LOWER pay rates--they can also decide where to put them--and if they want lower rates--they will be with us. This is how it worked with Delta Express---and that took 4 more years to clear up. But, Dalpa has a history of this, and even NW and their MEC are starting to grab plane types--they said they will fly anything 70 seats and up. Jetblue then just crushed everyone with very low 100 seater rates that will be the bench mark. These are things you should also be worrying about--the Jetblue management just set your future wages. Can the RJDC fire some mean letters over to them too? Do it! They just ruined your future earning potential. Now, if you really want to make a descent living--you should hope that Delta mainline survives and that you can eventually come over.....(or go to Southwest or Fedex)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

CTS,

>>>> and even NW and their MEC are starting to grab plane types--they said they will fly anything 70 seats and up.

You are misrepresenting the NW piots. They aren't grabbing anything. Their contract already says they fly anything from 56-seats up. They are not making a retroactive grab like some other folks tried.

Jetblue then just crushed everyone with very low 100 seater rates that will be the bench mark. These are things you should also be worrying about--the Jetblue management just set your future wages.

You're off base again and blaming the wrong people. JB didn't set anybody's wages and it is they that should be screaming at ALPA for the stupidity of forcing them into this low-ball pay scale. Their management is merely following in the footsteps of the ALPA scales established at USAirways.

Come on General, you're slipping. Now that you know what you'll be making when you get the 100-seater you want, know also who you should thank for the low wages YOU will get. It's not JB, it is ALPA!

 

[InclusiveScope]

Inclusivescope,

So, if we want to create pay rates for a new 7E7--we would have to run it by your RJDC thugs too, right? Give me a break. We can create pay rates for any NEW aircraft and fly them. If the company agrees to the new LOWER pay rates--they can also decide where to put them--and if they want lower rates--they will be with us. This is how it worked with Delta Express---and that took 4 more years to clear up. But, Dalpa has a history of this, and even NW and their MEC are starting to grab plane types--they said they will fly anything 70 seats and up. Jetblue then just crushed everyone with very low 100 seater rates that will be the bench mark. These are things you should also be worrying about--the Jetblue management just set your future wages. Can the RJDC fire some mean letters over to them too? Do it! They just ruined your future earning potential. Now, if you really want to make a descent living--you should hope that Delta mainline survives and that you can eventually come over.....(or go to Southwest or Fedex)

Bye Bye--General Lee

General, you missed the point AGAIN. The RJDC is suing ALPA for it's failure to represent ASA and CMR pilots fairly - PERIOD!!! You can negotiate any payrates you want. JetBlue can do the same. The RJDC has nothing to do with that. However many RJDC supporters have been saying that this would be a result of ALPA's failed scope policies. When you bid on flying, the pay will go down. Why does ALPA continue to support a bidding war on each property?