RJ opinions

[Mudworm]

I am researching aircraft for use as a corporate shuttle. I would like to get some feedback from some of you fellas on this forum that may have flown one or more of these RJ types. I am evaluating the CRJ-200 ERJ-135 and DOJet. Give me feedback on as many of the following points as you would care. PM is OK as well.

1: Reliability
2: Simplicity of systems
3: Flight Characteristics
4: Cockpit noise level
5: Ride in turbulance
6: Cabin Noise
7: What do you like least
8: What do you like most

 

[180ToTheMarker]

1: Reliability
2: Simplicity of systems
3: Flight Characteristics
4: Cockpit noise level
5: Ride in turbulance
6: Cabin Noise
7: What do you like least
8: What do you like most

CRJ-200:

1- Good
2- Easy
3- Light, like a fighter
4- Loud above 300 knots
5- Stiff and uncomfortable
6- Quiet
7- Underpowered
8- See #3

 

[nethan]

CRJ-200:


3- Light, like a fighter

Having never personally flown a high performance combat aircraft I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this, but if our military is fighting with things that handle like the CRJ then the Russians have already won. Oh wait... wrong war, but you get the point.

 

[BenderGonzales]

CRJ200:

1: Reliability - Depends on maintenance. Areas that frequently seem to be a problem are spoilers, APU, hydraulics, air-conditioning.

2: Simplicity of systems - Brilliantly simple. Designed for the best that Comair Academy has to offer.

3: Flight Characteristics - Extremely poor. Due to the lack of leading edge devices the airplane is a runway hog. It underperforms in climb. Approach angles are steep and in order to not land "flat" speed control is essential. Configuration changes while on autopilot cause large movements of the yoke fore and aft. Attempting to fly an ILS on autopilot does the same. (you could chip a tooth on the yoke if you're not careful!)

4: Cockpit noise level - The most uncomfortably loud jet-aircraft i've ever flown. The Fokker 28/100 is louder only because the packs are beneath the cockpit floor. Expect to require at LEAST Dave Clarks if not active noise canceling technology (Bose, etc.) for crews to prevent hearing loss long-term.

5: Ride in turbulance - Not great, not terrible.

6: Cabin Noise - Extremely loud. When the gear comes down it sounds like the airplane has been hit by a missle. Scares the heck out of me every time.

7: What do you like least - Flying qualities. The airplane is not enjoyable to handfly and is not at all smooth when flown on the autopilot (when compared to other transport category jet aircraft i/e Boeing, Douglas, etc.)

8: What do you like most - Getting off and going home. Just kidding. The avionics are pretty good. Not as good as the Primus 2000 you'll find on the Dornier, but overall good technology.

What does the airplane need? To be honest, many of the issues were solved with the CR7. The airplane desperately needed leading edge devices. A corporate operator would have dual CDUs (instead of the single unit purchased by cheap commuters) so that would be an improvement. FADEC is an improvement, but VNAV with autothrottles would be the icing on the cake. The autopilot software needs to be thrown off a cliff and the engineer drawn and quartered. They need to start from scratch with the autopilot.

As a corporate platform i'd give it about a 6 out of 10. If it had slats i'd kick it up to a 7.5 out of 10. There are better airplanes out there (Global Express, etc.)

Good luck! (don't mean to seem negative but I was just really not impressed by the CRJ at all.)

 

[DenverCrashpad]

CRJ-200

If you're using it as a corporate shuttle and won't be taking 50 people, I don't think you'll feel it's underpowered. It's the fastest of the three for sure and you can stand up straight in it & the Doj.

When I was at ACA, there were lots of reliability problems with the DoJet.... several aborted T/O's but everyone that flew it loved it.

 

[dojetdriver]

I am researching aircraft for use as a corporate shuttle. I would like to get some feedback from some of you fellas on this forum that may have flown one or more of these RJ types. I am evaluating the CRJ-200 ERJ-135 and DOJet. Give me feedback on as many of the following points as you would care. PM is OK as well.

1: Reliability
2: Simplicity of systems
3: Flight Characteristics
4: Cockpit noise level
5: Ride in turbulance
6: Cabin Noise
7: What do you like least
8: What do you like most

Ask LegacyDriver. He'll tell you how the Legacy is the best one out there while he's humping the landing gear.

As far as the DoJet goes;
1: Crap, plane wasn't designed that well. If you need to hire a mechanic, make sur you get one with experience on type.
2: Super easy, easier than the CRJ and ERJ. Cockpit workload is much less as well. More sophsticated than both the ERJ/CRJ. Autopilot is better than the ERJ's, not nearly as sloppy on the intercepts.
3. Awesome. Feels just as solid/stable at low speed as it does at high speed. The ERj feels very mushy when slow.Take off and climb will spank the the others. Comes to an all out stop at 400kts TAS. Short range (400nm or less) it's irrelevant. Ask me if you want more details on this.
4. Loud, they all are.
5. Good, same as the others
6. Louder than the CRJ, quiter than the ERJ. As a corporate shuttle, it has the most comfort. Tallest cabin, wider seats than the ERJ, smaller LAV.
7. Reliability could be better. Seats up front, not comfortable on long days.
8. Take off, climb performance. Workload, it's got VNAV. Able to take off and land on short strips. Simplicity of systems.

 

[mckpickle]

I am researching aircraft for use as a corporate shuttle. I would like to get some feedback from some of you fellas on this forum that may have flown one or more of these RJ types. I am evaluating the CRJ-200 ERJ-135 and DOJet. Give me feedback on as many of the following points as you would care. PM is OK as well.

1: Reliability
2: Simplicity of systems
3: Flight Characteristics
4: Cockpit noise level
5: Ride in turbulance
6: Cabin Noise
7: What do you like least
8: What do you like most

Are you asking about the ERJ 135 or the ERJ 135 Legacy? The Legacy beats everything else hands down. From what I understand it MUCH quieter due to the lack of windshield wipers. Holds a butt load of gas. Climbs like a home-sick angel, cruises at .80 and goes to FL410. I woudn't be too excited about a regular 135. Not great, not horrible. As far as reliability goes I suppose is depends on who is maintaining it. At XJT our MX is exceptional. But it's because of the experience they have with the type. We operate 270 a/c and hardly ever have more that 9 MEL's fleet wide! Pretty amazing!

 

[B.T.Justice]

Some other people pointed to the CRJ 700 (airline version), or Challenger 870 (corporate version). It's a really nice airplane. If your budget can take it the 870 is the way to go.

 

[180ToTheMarker]

Having never personally flown a high performance combat aircraft I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this, but if our military is fighting with things that handle like the CRJ then the Russians have already won. Oh wait... wrong war, but you get the point.

I have heard former fighter jet guys say this about the roll response and the light feel of the controls. Thats why I said that. I have never flown a fighter either though.

 

[PGTB]

CRJ-200

If you're using it as a corporate shuttle and won't be taking 50 people, I don't think you'll feel it's underpowered. It's the fastest of the three for sure and you can stand up straight in it & the Doj.

When I was at ACA, there were lots of reliability problems with the DoJet.... several aborted T/O's but everyone that flew it loved it.

You must be short.

 

[bvt1151]

Did some research in this area for another company, and invariably we ended up back in props. The CRJ/ERJ is acceptible if you're moving 20-50 people at least 600nm regularly. If you just wanted the size, of course you would have gone with a Gulfstream on Global Express, but I suspect you plan on moving several people.

With fuel as expensive as it is, and no relief in site, you might want to look at some Dash-8's or old Saab's sitting around. You can get them for dirt cheap, throw some money in for hot sections, etc. and ride in relative comfort for a fraction of the operating cost. While you won't be able to find any used Q-400's around, it may still be worth looking at. The Q-400 is roughly comparible to the CRJ in operating costs, although it depends greatly on how you want to use it. Anything less than 500nm, and it has a lower block-hour cost than the CRJ-200. It gets fuzzy when you go further, but you've got the extra room which may prevent you from having to charter a second aircraft. Older turboprops also have a lower residual value than small jets, specifically at the 15-20 year old range. Good for a buyer who can quickly depreciate the remaining amount.

If you are really looking for an economical choice, I'd strongly suggest a 50-seat prop. Q-300's, ATR-42's, even a Saab 2000. Of course if you've been promised a jet and the budget for one, I'm jealous and will be forwarding my resume

You can get CRJ's for a bit cheaper on the used market than ERJ's these days due to age and the bad luck of some CRJ carriers compared to ERJ carriers. I've been told older CRJ's airframes have been rated to about twice as many flight hours as their Brazilian counterpart, and since you will most likely not be leasing, this is something to look closely at.

The DoJet has reliability issues, but from what I've been told they deal mainly with the engines and the high-cycles of an airline schedule. Reliability won't be the problem for you as it was for the airlines, but when you do have a problem, support will be difficult to come by.

The Airline Monitor will have some good residual value data, and as always, the NBAA has invaluable information. Good luck.

 

[blzr]

Just get a Dash-8. Yeah, it's slow, loud, and old. But she'll get you there in style.

Oh, also put a piece or two of duct tape on the props. it'll really freak out the pax.

 

[inthepool]

some notes on the EMB

1. Works good, lasts a long time. Most common issues at my company are with the anti-ice, but it's very rare that we ground an airplane.

2. A monkey could figure out these systems.

3. I like the way it handles, but I hate the yoke.

4. Lots of wind noise. I use ear plugs under my lightweight Telex headsets and it works fine.

5. Short, stiff wing = bumpy ride.

6. Quiet in the middle, loud in the front and back.

7. The work load is really low. Most of the systems are set and forget. The anti-ice turns itself on, for example. The bigger models are dogs in the climb, but the 135 performs pretty well, especially if it's not fully loaded.

8. The yoke sucks!

 

[SkykingC310]

I worked for ADI. Specifically, their Intel Shuttle operation out of Hillsboro, OR. They fly (6) ERJ-135's and (1) Beech 1900D. The 135's would carry 37 pax, 1 FA, 1 Pilot, 1 FO, 1 jumpseater, 1000 lbs. in the cargo bay, and 7000 lbs. of fuel. They'd cruise at FL370 doing .78 Mach. This is five days a week, 6AM-8PM. They run great. Sweet Rolls-Royce engines. Same ones found on the Citaton X and the A-10 Warthog's. As far as MX, not very often an issue. Mech's would inspect each plane, each night. They were on a CAMP. The one time they were down for an extended period of time was when one of the line guys backed the 1900D into the tail of one of the 135's! Had to get a rudder shipped from Brazil. Took a few days. They've been flying them this way since 2001. I vote for the ERJ-135. Obviously, if you have fewer passengers, then take a look at the Legacy. Amazing. You can find them for less than $20M.

 

[dojetdriver]

I worked for ADI. Specifically, their Intel Shuttle operation out of Hillsboro, OR. They fly (6) ERJ-135's and (1) Beech 1900D. The 135's would carry 37 pax, 1 FA, 1 Pilot, 1 FO, 1 jumpseater, 1000 lbs. in the cargo bay, and 7000 lbs. of fuel. They'd cruise at FL370 doing .78 Mach. This is five days a week, 6AM-8PM. They run great. Sweet Rolls-Royce engines. Same ones found on the Citaton X and the A-10 Warthog's. As far as MX, not very often an issue. Mech's would inspect each plane, each night. They were on a CAMP. The one time they were down for an extended period of time was when one of the line guys backed the 1900D into the tail of one of the 135's! Had to get a rudder shipped from Brazil. Took a few days. They've been flying them this way since 2001. I vote for the ERJ-135. Obviously, if you have fewer passengers, then take a look at the Legacy. Amazing. You can find them for less than $20M.

I'm pretty sure the A-10 Warthog has the GE TF34's. More like the CRJ. I doubt you could shoot 50 caliber ammo into a CRJ engine and still have it keep turning though.

 

[ex j-41]

Corporate

I often wonder if the CRJ would be a good corporate jet.
The main problem with the 200 would be the fuel range. There is a reason
why the 601 has a center fuel tank. If you would not be taking the CRJ
cross the pond it would not be a concern. But the CRJ cannot go that far.
Also the max altitude is 41000 feet. And as we all know that is not always
the right thing to do. The reason Gulfsteams are so popular is because they
can climb to the altitude fast and then burns little fuel. The CRJ is a great
airplane for a 300-500 mile trip. That is about it.

My perfect CRJ for corporate use would have more powerful engines
capable of going to 45,000 feet. And enough fuel tanks to take me from
Miami to Paris. Maybe you can get an STC?

 

[BoilerUP]

I'd love to fly a 200 with the engines from a 900. giddyup! Another 1000-1500 lbs of gas in an aux tank in the very back of the aft equipment bay to counteract the forward CG would be nice, too.

Could you imagine Xzibit saying "Pilot dude, we're gonna pimp yo' ride!"

:laugh:

 

[ekuflyer]

A-10=GE TF34 similar to the CF34 on the CRJ.

 

[sweptback]

I often wonder if the CRJ would be a good corporate jet.

I met a guy at FSI one day, a former CMR pilot, who was in for CRJ recurrent on his corporate CRJ 200. He said they took it across the pond. I only assume they had some sort of an aux tank but I didn't have a lot of time to talk to him. Seems like an odd airplane for the mission, but I guess it works for them.

 

[DoinTime]

I met a guy at FSI one day, a former CMR pilot, who was in for CRJ recurrent on his corporate CRJ 200. He said they took it across the pond. I only assume they had some sort of an aux tank but I didn't have a lot of time to talk to him. Seems like an odd airplane for the mission, but I guess it works for them.

All NWA CRJ's have center tanks and hold 14,518 lbs of fuel. Topped off this is good for about 1600 nm with reserves and an alt. at normal cruise speed.

 

[updraft]

CRJ has the same roll rate as an F-16

 

[ERJFO]

Ask LegacyDriver. He'll tell you how the Legacy is the best one out there while he's humping the landing gear.

As far as the DoJet goes;
1: Crap, plane wasn't designed that well. If you need to hire a mechanic, make sur you get one with experience on type.
2: Super easy, easier than the CRJ and ERJ. Cockpit workload is much less as well. More sophsticated than both the ERJ/CRJ. Autopilot is better than the ERJ's, not nearly as sloppy on the intercepts.
3. Awesome. Feels just as solid/stable at low speed as it does at high speed. The ERj feels very mushy when slow.Take off and climb will spank the the others. Comes to an all out stop at 400kts TAS. Short range (400nm or less) it's irrelevant. Ask me if you want more details on this.
4. Loud, they all are.
5. Good, same as the others
6. Louder than the CRJ, quiter than the ERJ. As a corporate shuttle, it has the most comfort. Tallest cabin, wider seats than the ERJ, smaller LAV.
7. Reliability could be better. Seats up front, not comfortable on long days.
8. Take off, climb performance. Workload, it's got VNAV. Able to take off and land on short strips. Simplicity of systems.

DOJET is too slow, .65 is about all it can give you.

ERJ may be the best in terms of reliability - I would go with a Legacy as it would be a perfect corperate shuttle airplane (many already use them for this).

ERJ isn't mushy at slow speeds - the Legacy with XR style improvements is fine at slow speeds.

 

[flashman]

CRJ-200 is a DOG. 700 is decent.

ERJ - More reliable, better/more automation that CRJ.

I understand the CL-600 Challenger is a decent config.

 

[atrdriver]

All NWA CRJ's have center tanks and hold 14,518 lbs of fuel. Topped off this is good for about 1600 nm with reserves and an alt. at normal cruise speed.

Same fuel capacity at ASA. Of course if you had to sit in those seats for 1600NM you'd be suicidal by the time you got to where you were going.

 

[sweptback]

All NWA CRJ's have center tanks and hold 14,518 lbs of fuel. Topped off this is good for about 1600 nm with reserves and an alt. at normal cruise speed.

That 1600 nm will get you about halfway across the North Atlantic before your engines flame out. BOS-LGW (one of the shortest trans-Atlantic routes) is 2853 nm great circle. Even if you made a stop in say, Gander Bay, it would still be 2100 nm.

Hence my comment about needing some sort of an aux tank.

 

[dojetdriver]

DOJET is too slow, .65 is about all it can give you.

ERJ may be the best in terms of reliability - I would go with a Legacy as it would be a perfect corperate shuttle airplane (many already use them for this).

ERJ isn't mushy at slow speeds - the Legacy with XR style improvements is fine at slow speeds.

Yep, the DoJet is slow. On a 4-500 NM stage lenghth it rally doesn't matter. Also it you are going to operate this corporate shuttle in the Northeast Corridor, it won't matter either.

I remember in 2000-2001 going out of RDU and RIC there was an AE 145, MESA CRJ and a 328 that would all push within 5 minutes of each other going to LGA. Guess who got there first? Whoever got off the ground first. It didn't matter if the 328 only did .65.

 

[Mudworm]

Thanks for all the info. No, we do not plan on flying the RJ to Europe. That is where the GV hands down does the job best! The RJ will mostly be operated in the North East with the longer leg NY to St. Pete.

Thanks again and any more input apreciated.

 

[Paul R. Smith]

I would go with the Do-jet. Its slower and you get paid by the hour.

I know nothing about the Dojet...

Does the Do-jet have wing boots for Ice protection?




The lav in the ERJ is much bigger than the CRJ (at least on the pinnacle aircraft I rode on)..if that has ever been an important factor for anyone...

I fly the Emb so I am biased

 

[Cloudroller]

the ERJ 145LR has more of a range problem than the CRJ 200. The ERJ's FMS (at least the one i use to fly - Universal 1K) is junk.

 

[dojetdriver]

I would go with the Do-jet. Its slower and you get paid by the hour.

I know nothing about the Dojet...

Does the Do-jet have wing boots for Ice protection?




The lav in the ERJ is much bigger than the CRJ (at least on the pinnacle aircraft I rode on)..if that has ever been an important factor for anyone...

I fly the Emb so I am biased

DoJet, smaller lav than the ERJ. It has boots. Not like it matters. I never had a problem with that plane in icing conditions. To top it off, you don't need to tell the FADEC its an ice on take off or configure the bleed system for an ice on take off. The plane has enough thrust that it's not an issue. The only thing being the climb rate wil dog around 3000 fpm with the stuff on.