rj fo question

[172driver]

What's it like flying with some of these high time captains who think they're God's gift to aviation, that they paid more dues than you, that they fly like Chuck Yeager, and are as sharp as Einstein?

Examples:

whats it like flyin with some of these new 100,000 dollar pilot mill graduates? i was in fla talking to some dca guys and they acted like they were already hired by delta.the rj seems like a lot of plane for someone coming straight out of a seminole.

While I agree that these academy kids are often times full of themselves, the CRJ and ERJ are not terribly difficult to operate. Its the "headwork" that too many of the low timers do not have.

The pilot mill types vary. Overall, I wish the programs did not exist. I prefer the guys with 121, or cargo, experience. Former Delta, World, Eagle and Piedmont pilots have been the best new hires I have had the pleasure of working with.

A school can not teach experience. The mill types have very little situational awareness due to the fact that they have very little experience.

I find that the captains with this kind of attitude usually can't fly for sh!t and that they have very little situational awareness. I am a fairly humble and quiet guy and try to trust the captain to do his/her job well but there are many out there who have to be coached through an entire 4 day trip. I often wonder how some of these guys would fare single pilot.

By far, the majority of captains out there are excellent pilots, decision makers, and leaders but it sure seems to me that many of the higher time, higher age guys have either lost a lot of skills or become complacent. I'd take a recently upgraded 2500 hr academy grad in the left seat any day over a 25 yr airline captain.

Experience only takes you so far. After you've got 500 hrs in the plane, you fly it as well as anyone. Once you've seen all the airports and weather conditions, you get a pretty good handle on that side of things. After that, it seems to me to be about keeping your head in the game, hand flying once in a while to keep your skills sharp, and earning the respect of your crew by being a competent and likeable captain.

Yes, I am an academy guy. No, I'm not the best pilot on earth and I do make mistakes but I do not EVER have to be continuously babysat through a leg or a trip like many of the captains I have flown with. Experience does not always breed competence and competence can be found with relatively little experience.

 

[jumppilot]

"After you've got 500 hrs in the plane, you fly it as well as anyone. "


Disagree. I'd rather fly with anyone who is close to upgrade (ie: studing their a** of with profiles, procedures and system knowledge) or someone who has 0 hours.

Many pilots, including myself, with 500 hours think they know best and slack.

However, people are different and the above rule isn't steadfast.

 

[JimBo480]

What's it like flying with some of these high time captains who think they're God's gift to aviation, that they paid more dues than you, that they fly like Chuck Yeager, and are as sharp as Einstein?

I wish I could answer your question, but after flying for two years at NWA (before being furloughed) I never came across one of these captains. Lots with high time, several with 20,000 hours in type, most with exceptional flying skills and even a few in Einstein's league.....but none who thought they were God's-gift-to-aviation.

I know a few of these folks are out there, so I assume that the HR department is doing a good job in the screening process. I've been told they can look at the paperwork and determine your qualifications, they call you in for the interview to do a personality check....to see if they would like to set next to you for a 4 day trip.

If you encounter these folks, smile, be gracious and learn what you can from them. Most of these types will end up being a big fish in a small pond, forever limited by their attitude. Whatever you do, don't emulate their behavior or you'll pick up the same limitations.

Having said all of this, I agree with most of what was said by the individual you were quoting. I don't like PFT and there's no substitute for flying time when it comes to building situational awareness. If that automatically makes me a "God's gift to aviation" type pilot, then perhaps the problem isn't with your captain.

Jim, waiting for recall

 

[aviatrix]

Yes, I am an academy guy. Experience does not always breed competence and competence can be found with relatively little experience.

What the heck is an "academy guy?" Sounds kind of lame if you ask me.

No, experience does not always breed competence, but in this industry its the best shot you've got. There's no room for error, and those with little experience have decision-making problems.

 

[bailout]

Its simple.. we have a few of these "class act" captains here. When they start b$tchin about the way you fly simply state "Your controls" and let them fly every leg from then on out. Tell them, yes you are captain and I respect the position, BUT you are not my boss. It completely humiliates even the biggest jerks.

 

[FL000]

...competence can be found with relatively little experience.

That's what everyone with little experience says. Funny, I've never heard anyone with a lot of experience say that.

Anyway, sounds like someone got their feewings hurt.

 

[Flechas]

That's what everyone with little experience says. Funny, I've never heard anyone with a lot of experience say that.

Anyway, sounds like someone got their feewings hurt.

Totally agree with FL000, nothing can replace experience, you have to be there and see it all a few times before you really become good at it. Also, you always think you are really good, but what you dont know is how much you still have to learn. I'm not saying you cant be a good pilot with only a few hours, but it is amazing how much more you learn as you get more experience.
As far as us new guys is concerned, try to learn as much as you can, even from the captains that you think are not good, they for sure have seen a lot more than you. Any new plane can humble you when you least expect it, especially a jet.
Fly safe guys.

Flechas

 

[Flechas]

I should also say that all the captains i have flown with so far have been great. Even the ones that have been in the company for ever.

 

[AlwaysLearning]

There are always going to be pilots like you described (both FOs and Capts), not saying anyone who posted the quotes or repsoneded are, just saying these people are out there. Learn to ignore them, fly by the book, on speed and if they gripe about that, well you win.

You are right competancy doesn't come from experiene, it comes from what you learn in those experiences and how you apply it to later experiences, so on and so on. Low time guys are always going to get a bad rap. Everyone has been there and has had gotten it, call it hazing, call a right of passage, call it paying your dues, call it whatever, it's part of aviation it will never go away and it's not a bad thing. Everyone needs to take a bite of humble pie once and a while and the best place for that first serving is your first 121 job when it all becomes clear YOU DON"T KNOW EVERYTHING!

It's not a smack on the person personnaly, it says nothing about your ability to fly the airplane (I sure hope people can actually fly the airplane) it is simply a statment of facts. Low time guys are new, they have never done it before, YOU HAVE TO LEARN!

Heck, I fly with captains all the time that are asking me, where is Gate 22B? Because they don't fly into CLT a lot and I do. Working as a crew, leaning and relying on each other, and helping each other out is what it's all about. As soon as everyone figures out it's not and ego contest and not a contest of who can point out more things the other guy is doing wrong, these kinds of threads will stop.

Enough of a rant, in the immortal words of someone who isn't famous, "Can't we all just get a long?"

AL

 

[BackSoon05]

Its simple.. we have a few of these "class act" captains here. When they start b$tchin about the way you fly simply state "Your controls" and let them fly every leg from then on out. Tell them, yes you are captain and I respect the position, BUT you are not my boss. It completely humiliates even the biggest jerks.

Sorry guys, but I had to bite on this one.

Holy Crap, you have no clue. If he's bitchin at you, he has a reason. Some are nicer about it than others, some have better CRM skills than others. Upgrade, become a Captain for a while, then go back and take a flight or two in the right seat. Only then will you understand the extra stress that guy over there feels.

I am NOT God's gift to Aviation. I make mistakes, I ask for help. I need a hand every once in a while. After all it is a two pilot operation, right. BUT...if you did that to me, I would get you off of my aircraft at the first opportunity. You WOULD be written up and you would then be doing a carpet dance in the CP's office. And keep in mind, I've NEVER written up a fellow crewmember. I believe what happens up front, stays up front. Any Captain who let you get away with not doing your job...is doing the rest of the company a disservice.

 

[labbats]

I try and get all the info I can from every captain I fly with. Most are very cool about it and will tell you little secrets they've learned from flying this plane for 4000 hours. Some will talk down to you a bit, but they're few and far between.

 

[Steve 737]

I've flown with quite a few 25 year airline captains who are "higher time, higher age" and I would have to disagree with you that "many of them" have "lost thier skills" or have "become complacent". Quite the contrary. I flew for 14 years at USAir and one would be hard pressed to find a more professional and highly competent group of aviators (most of them older and higher time). BTW, exactly how many "25 year" airline captains have you flown with ?

What's it like flying with some of these high time captains who think they're God's gift to aviation, that they paid more dues than you, that they fly like Chuck Yeager, and are as sharp as Einstein?

Examples:







I find that the captains with this kind of attitude usually can't fly for sh!t and that they have very little situational awareness. I am a fairly humble and quiet guy and try to trust the captain to do his/her job well but there are many out there who have to be coached through an entire 4 day trip. I often wonder how some of these guys would fare single pilot.

By far, the majority of captains out there are excellent pilots, decision makers, and leaders but it sure seems to me that many of the higher time, higher age guys have either lost a lot of skills or become complacent. I'd take a recently upgraded 2500 hr academy grad in the left seat any day over a 25 yr airline captain.

Experience only takes you so far. After you've got 500 hrs in the plane, you fly it as well as anyone. Once you've seen all the airports and weather conditions, you get a pretty good handle on that side of things. After that, it seems to me to be about keeping your head in the game, hand flying once in a while to keep your skills sharp, and earning the respect of your crew by being a competent and likeable captain.

Yes, I am an academy guy. No, I'm not the best pilot on earth and I do make mistakes but I do not EVER have to be continuously babysat through a leg or a trip like many of the captains I have flown with. Experience does not always breed competence and competence can be found with relatively little experience.

 

[Bryan D]

Experience only takes you so far. After you've got 500 hrs in the plane, you fly it as well as anyone.

Thats funny! Do you have any more of those one liners 172Driver?
"I have 500 hrs in type, giterdone"

 

[Standby 1]

I try and get all the info I can from every captain I fly with. Most are very cool about it and will tell you little secrets they've learned from flying this plane for 4000 hours. Some will talk down to you a bit, but they're few and far between.

Well said and my sentiments exactly. The right seat, like it or not, is a learning position. Experience is the only way one ever learns the skills necessary to be PIC and the only way to get that experience is by flying right seat.

I learn from every captain I fly with (a few I learn what not to do, but it is still valuable learning). 99.9% of them at my company are awesome. And let's face it, when I first got out on the line, it was a babysitting job for them. I'm not ashamed to admit that I didn't know my @ss from my elbow at that point. But I listened, leaned, and then applied the knowledge the captain's passed along. I'd like to think I'm halfway compentent now, LOL. But I've still got a heck of alot to learn.

I'd like to think that most captains remember that they, too, were idiots hanging on to the tail of the aircraft when they first started the job. Those that forget what it was like may be good pilots, but they are the ones that are always brought up as examples in CRM classes every year.



...

 

[V1cut]

Well said and my sentiments exactly. I learn from every captain I fly with (a few I learn what not to do, but it is still valuable learning). 99.9% of them at my company are awesome.
...

my sentiments as well.
Most Captains will also tell you the day they stop learning is the day they retire. i would, but i am a Capt no longer.

life is short

 

[CarjCapt]

Experience:

<The right seat, like it or not, is a learning position. Experience is the only way one ever learns the skills necessary to be PIC and the only way to get that experience is by flying right seat.>

Just to let you know that both seats are learning seats. The only difference between the Captain and the First Officer is the Captain got there first. You have been trained to the same standards and the difference is experience.

My last flight of my last trip was a learning experience for me. I stopped learning to add to my experience was when I walked off the aircraft for the last time.

I want to thank all the FOs I've flown with for the patience and wisdom they have shared with me over the years.

I would allow my children to fly on your aircraft anytime.

 

[pooter]

out of curiosity for those that have been to an"academy" do you get any type of turbine training?for the prices i would hope so.

 

[Dude]

I forgot who said "you ain't my boss". Like hell. That's the way it is......it's called the chain of command. If you don't like it then fly single pilot in a king Air the rest of your career. Don't worry, when you upgrade you'll get to fly with your favorite Captain everyday.

 

[Typhoon1244]

What's it like flying with some of these high time captains who think they're God's gift to aviation, that they paid more dues than you, that they fly like Chuck Yeager, and are as sharp as Einstein?

It's terrible. It's almost as bad as having a guy sit in the right seat and pout for four days because the company didn't hand him four stripes when he walked in the door.

In my experience, Bitter Copilot Syndrome (BCD) is quite rare. The two people I dealt with who had the worst cases became captains few people wanted to fly with. This has nothing to do with experience or flying ability, it's about attitude. If your attitude sucks, you're going to be miserable no matter what seat you're in.

 

[J32driver]

Its simple.. we have a few of these "class act" captains here. When they start b$tchin about the way you fly simply state "Your controls" and let them fly every leg from then on out. Tell them, yes you are captain and I respect the position, BUT you are not my boss. It completely humiliates even the biggest jerks.

Yes... I am your boss.

Yes... I will take the airplane from you permanently, right after I use ARINC to call scheduling and have you replaced.

Yes... you will explain yourself to the Chief Pilot.... and yes he is going to chew your A S S.


... and I'm about as relaxed and laid back as they come.

 

[BellyFlyer]

What 172Driver was trying to do is blow off some steam. He is a little frustrated at the unusually high percentage of captains he's flown with that require extra-special help to do their jobs. I know and have flown with some of the captains he has flown with. And I have some similar experiences.

The vast majority of the captains I fly with are competent and likeable. But, he's right, some are just duds. I find myself having to 'suggest' decisions to them they should be making anyway. Sometimes I remind them of limitations, regulations we should be following, even how to fill out their own paperwork. We are a two-person crew, and thats great. But the excessive baby-sitting and coaching is what 172Driver is getting at. It wears on you sometimes. And I can imagine if there are a good number of captains that require extra attention, you captains must see the same in some first officers. It is a breath of fresh air to fly with someone who is likeable and competent.

Oh, and I don't mind a captain being in command (PIC). But, the day a captain has the ability to hire/fire me or sign my paycheck is when he becomes my boss. The CP's are the only ones who qualify there. So for you chip-on-the shoulder, power-monger types in the left seat, save it! You are NOT the boss. You DONT necessarily have more experience or time in type than the guy to your right. You had BETTER listen to your first officer and solicit his/her input. He/she MAY just know more about the situation that you!

For those of you who "set the tone" well at the beginning of the trip and are team-players, I salute you.

 

[T-Gates]

Yes... I am your boss.

Yes... I will take the airplane from you permanently, right after I use ARINC to call scheduling and have you replaced.

Yes... you will explain yourself to the Chief Pilot.... and yes he is going to chew your A S S.


... and I'm about as relaxed and laid back as they come.

Some guys don't realize how bad they have to screw up to have that happen... And when it does, then they act like I'm being an a$$hole. Even if you almost got the both of us killed.

And I am also about as laid back and patient as they come....

 

[J32driver]

You are NOT the boss.

BellyFlyer... I understand what you are saying about babysitting captains. I've done it myself. I've flown with those guys where me ,the FO is doing the captain job as well. The captan is still the immediate supervisor though. He is boss.... until the trip is over... even if that means the FO removing himself from the trip to solve whatever operational problem the FO sees.

The captain is legally responsible for the airplane. He is PIC. End of discussion. That means every other crewmember on board reports to him whether you like it or not.

This discussion cuts to the core of my one and only problem with extremely low time FOs. They show up thinking they are not responsible to the captain. An FO does not log PIC time when he handles the controls. He logs 2nd in command time.

One last little tidbit and I'll step down off my soapbox. When there is a serious personality conflict between the Captain and FO, the only way out for the FO is to remove himself from the trip. He certainly isn't going to call scheduling and say, I want you to remove the captain from the trip. On the other hand.... if the captain wants a change, he isn't going to say he wants out of the trip. He is going to call scheduling and say "get me another FO". Therein lies your chain of command.

If you don't understand that, I would imagine thats alot of the reason you may be having problems with the captains you fly with.

A last bit of advice: If a captain isn't going to get you injured or violated, then don't help them if you don't like them. Watching them hang themselves can be a lot of fun.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Experience only takes you so far. After you've got 500 hrs in the plane, you fly it as well as anyone. Once you've seen all the airports and weather conditions, you get a pretty good handle on that side of things.

Really?

 

[Dude]

Hey BellyFlyer,

Has the CRM, "let's hold hands crap" really convinced you that just because your presence is required the Captain isn't the boss? Save it for recurrent CRM, but on line, if the Captain ain't the boss then who is? It isn't a case of being a power monger, it's having the training and the type that entitles you to run your boat the way you want. The Captain is the Boss. Plenty of Captains are fools and mismanage their aircraft and crew, but that doesn't mean that he isn't the Boss. At what point did we forget what a Boss/Captain is? He/She is ultimately responsible for you, the stews, pax, and aircraft. Don't take the few bad examples out there and assume because they are less than professional that you are entitled to forget what your job is. Seniority and experience is a b1tch, but you gotta have it to get it. When you upgrade tell me what you think when a guy sitting across from you informs you that you aren't his boss. You are his boss until he steps off your airplane and steps on someone elses. Just in case you were wondering, Co-Pilot isn't Co-Captain; if it was, you would be sporting a type and your names would be side by side on the release and not your name under his.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Let's also remember that you can be the boss without being bossy. That's the difference between captains and good captains.

 

[skyslug]

One more thing for Bellyflyer. You say you have to babysit captains, "suggest decisions", "remind them", etc?! Something I remember as an FO was that I had to adjust to every captain I flew with. Each had their own pace. This is important! Because you felt or feel you have to remind some captains to do something doesn't mean that they aren't already thinking about it, devising a plan of action, or are going to doing it. It may be a simple matter of your comfort level or your own pace in doing things that doesn't jive with the captains.

I've flown with an FO or two who think they're the captain also. It's been my experience that they're vibrating with energy and want things done 10 minutes ago and are thinking way too ahead of the aircraft or situation. Slow down a bit (no, I'm not suggesting in any way that you are one of these folks).

So you have to put some trust in the guy next to you or you'll make a lousy captain yourself as you will mistrust all the FO's you fly with and make their life a living he11. Keep in mind everyone has a pace they work at and with and also that we (the PIC) are in charge/command (hence the "in command" part of PIC). You need to be flexible.

If there is any problem you need to try to talk it out or if unable go to Pro Standards before it involves the CP's office or worse yet, endangers crew or pax! Once it gets to the CP's office it becomes the company's business.
I can almost guarantee you people have no idea how they come across to those they work with and a little "insight" will go a long way.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Hey BellyFlyer,

Has the CRM, "let's hold hands crap" really convinced you that just because your presence is required the Captain isn't the boss? Save it for recurrent CRM, but on line, if the Captain ain't the boss then who is? It isn't a case of being a power monger, it's having the training and the type that entitles you to run your boat the way you want. The Captain is the Boss. Plenty of Captains are fools and mismanage their aircraft and crew, but that doesn't mean that he isn't the Boss. At what point did we forget what a Boss/Captain is? He/She is ultimately responsible for you, the stews, pax, and aircraft. Don't take the few bad examples out there and assume because they are less than professional that you are entitled to forget what your job is. Seniority and experience is a b1tch, but you gotta have it to get it. When you upgrade tell me what you think when a guy sitting across from you informs you that you aren't his boss. You are his boss until he steps off your airplane and steps on someone elses. Just in case you were wondering, Co-Pilot isn't Co-Captain; if it was, you would be sporting a type and your names would be side by side on the release and not your name under his.

Well said!