rj fo question

[BellyFlyer]

What 172Driver was trying to do is blow off some steam. He is a little frustrated at the unusually high percentage of captains he's flown with that require extra-special help to do their jobs. I know and have flown with some of the captains he has flown with. And I have some similar experiences.

The vast majority of the captains I fly with are competent and likeable. But, he's right, some are just duds. I find myself having to 'suggest' decisions to them they should be making anyway. Sometimes I remind them of limitations, regulations we should be following, even how to fill out their own paperwork. We are a two-person crew, and thats great. But the excessive baby-sitting and coaching is what 172Driver is getting at. It wears on you sometimes. And I can imagine if there are a good number of captains that require extra attention, you captains must see the same in some first officers. It is a breath of fresh air to fly with someone who is likeable and competent.

Oh, and I don't mind a captain being in command (PIC). But, the day a captain has the ability to hire/fire me or sign my paycheck is when he becomes my boss. The CP's are the only ones who qualify there. So for you chip-on-the shoulder, power-monger types in the left seat, save it! You are NOT the boss. You DONT necessarily have more experience or time in type than the guy to your right. You had BETTER listen to your first officer and solicit his/her input. He/she MAY just know more about the situation that you!

For those of you who "set the tone" well at the beginning of the trip and are team-players, I salute you.

 

[T-Gates]

Yes... I am your boss.

Yes... I will take the airplane from you permanently, right after I use ARINC to call scheduling and have you replaced.

Yes... you will explain yourself to the Chief Pilot.... and yes he is going to chew your A S S.


... and I'm about as relaxed and laid back as they come.

Some guys don't realize how bad they have to screw up to have that happen... And when it does, then they act like I'm being an a$$hole. Even if you almost got the both of us killed.

And I am also about as laid back and patient as they come....

 

[J32driver]

You are NOT the boss.

BellyFlyer... I understand what you are saying about babysitting captains. I've done it myself. I've flown with those guys where me ,the FO is doing the captain job as well. The captan is still the immediate supervisor though. He is boss.... until the trip is over... even if that means the FO removing himself from the trip to solve whatever operational problem the FO sees.

The captain is legally responsible for the airplane. He is PIC. End of discussion. That means every other crewmember on board reports to him whether you like it or not.

This discussion cuts to the core of my one and only problem with extremely low time FOs. They show up thinking they are not responsible to the captain. An FO does not log PIC time when he handles the controls. He logs 2nd in command time.

One last little tidbit and I'll step down off my soapbox. When there is a serious personality conflict between the Captain and FO, the only way out for the FO is to remove himself from the trip. He certainly isn't going to call scheduling and say, I want you to remove the captain from the trip. On the other hand.... if the captain wants a change, he isn't going to say he wants out of the trip. He is going to call scheduling and say "get me another FO". Therein lies your chain of command.

If you don't understand that, I would imagine thats alot of the reason you may be having problems with the captains you fly with.

A last bit of advice: If a captain isn't going to get you injured or violated, then don't help them if you don't like them. Watching them hang themselves can be a lot of fun.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Experience only takes you so far. After you've got 500 hrs in the plane, you fly it as well as anyone. Once you've seen all the airports and weather conditions, you get a pretty good handle on that side of things.

Really?

 

[Dude]

Hey BellyFlyer,

Has the CRM, "let's hold hands crap" really convinced you that just because your presence is required the Captain isn't the boss? Save it for recurrent CRM, but on line, if the Captain ain't the boss then who is? It isn't a case of being a power monger, it's having the training and the type that entitles you to run your boat the way you want. The Captain is the Boss. Plenty of Captains are fools and mismanage their aircraft and crew, but that doesn't mean that he isn't the Boss. At what point did we forget what a Boss/Captain is? He/She is ultimately responsible for you, the stews, pax, and aircraft. Don't take the few bad examples out there and assume because they are less than professional that you are entitled to forget what your job is. Seniority and experience is a b1tch, but you gotta have it to get it. When you upgrade tell me what you think when a guy sitting across from you informs you that you aren't his boss. You are his boss until he steps off your airplane and steps on someone elses. Just in case you were wondering, Co-Pilot isn't Co-Captain; if it was, you would be sporting a type and your names would be side by side on the release and not your name under his.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Let's also remember that you can be the boss without being bossy. That's the difference between captains and good captains.

 

[skyslug]

One more thing for Bellyflyer. You say you have to babysit captains, "suggest decisions", "remind them", etc?! Something I remember as an FO was that I had to adjust to every captain I flew with. Each had their own pace. This is important! Because you felt or feel you have to remind some captains to do something doesn't mean that they aren't already thinking about it, devising a plan of action, or are going to doing it. It may be a simple matter of your comfort level or your own pace in doing things that doesn't jive with the captains.

I've flown with an FO or two who think they're the captain also. It's been my experience that they're vibrating with energy and want things done 10 minutes ago and are thinking way too ahead of the aircraft or situation. Slow down a bit (no, I'm not suggesting in any way that you are one of these folks).

So you have to put some trust in the guy next to you or you'll make a lousy captain yourself as you will mistrust all the FO's you fly with and make their life a living he11. Keep in mind everyone has a pace they work at and with and also that we (the PIC) are in charge/command (hence the "in command" part of PIC). You need to be flexible.

If there is any problem you need to try to talk it out or if unable go to Pro Standards before it involves the CP's office or worse yet, endangers crew or pax! Once it gets to the CP's office it becomes the company's business.
I can almost guarantee you people have no idea how they come across to those they work with and a little "insight" will go a long way.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Hey BellyFlyer,

Has the CRM, "let's hold hands crap" really convinced you that just because your presence is required the Captain isn't the boss? Save it for recurrent CRM, but on line, if the Captain ain't the boss then who is? It isn't a case of being a power monger, it's having the training and the type that entitles you to run your boat the way you want. The Captain is the Boss. Plenty of Captains are fools and mismanage their aircraft and crew, but that doesn't mean that he isn't the Boss. At what point did we forget what a Boss/Captain is? He/She is ultimately responsible for you, the stews, pax, and aircraft. Don't take the few bad examples out there and assume because they are less than professional that you are entitled to forget what your job is. Seniority and experience is a b1tch, but you gotta have it to get it. When you upgrade tell me what you think when a guy sitting across from you informs you that you aren't his boss. You are his boss until he steps off your airplane and steps on someone elses. Just in case you were wondering, Co-Pilot isn't Co-Captain; if it was, you would be sporting a type and your names would be side by side on the release and not your name under his.

Well said!