Return to the initial?

[midlifeflyer]

Thanks to all of you who have posted. This all helps.

**looking at the RKS NDB-C plate**

When I had gone missed, I turned back to the NDB. My bearing was such that allowed me to enter parallel. I did not parallel the outbound course, 065'. I flew the outbound course. It was inside that first minute, (when I had technically entered the hold) that I was cleared. Because I could not make a "normal descent to land" from the NDB at 9,000, to the MDA at 7,160 (that is 2 grand in 1 minute in a 172), I opted to go outbound for the procedure turn. I could not proceed outbound unless I had crossed an IAF, the NDB in this case.

But you =did= cross the IAF outbound less than a minute earlier, didn't you?

This would be a lot easier if we were all standing around the approach plate and drawing on it. So excuse anything that misunderstands what was happening.

"I flew the outbound course" - that tells me that you are on the 065° bearing from the station flying outbound at 9000.

I don't understand why you couldn't make a normal descent to land from that position. As depicted, the PT has a 9100' outbound altitude. Once established inbound you may descend to 8,000 until crossing the NDB for the FAF inbound descent.

I think we're all saying that you were already outbound at 065° at an appropriate altitude. You knew exactly where you were and how much time had elapsed since crossing the fix outbound. Unless I'm misreading the picture completely, all you needed to do when you received the clearance was keep counting seconds to finish off the 1 or 2 minutes (probably 2 considering the 1000' altitude you needed to lose when PT-inbound) PT-outbound instead of turning back inbound for the hold after 1 minute. Do you see that?

On the other hand, if you had already made your inbound hold turn - were already heading 245° back to the NDB in the hold, then I can definitely see the problem - 1000' to lose in what might be less than a minute. At that point, nosehair's comment becomes more meaningful. ATC is =still= most likely expecting you to continue on the approach and head down, but that's a bunch of altitude to lose in less than a minute, especially if you're not expecting it. So advising ATC that you wanted another turn in the hold would have been more than appropriate.

Go back the chart for a minute. Assume the airplane is at 9000'. Can you tell me whether it is doing a parallel entry for the hold or a procedure turn outbound? If you can, how?

http://www.midlifeflight.us/images/pt.gif

Isn't that approximately where you were?

 

[jackotron]

Mark,

Thank's for your help, I was under the impression that regardless of your current position that if cleared after crossing the IAF, you had to return to, or go to another, IAF to initiate the approach.

In regards to making a "normal descent to land," and the confusion there. I was talking about skipping the procedure turn. I know that if once established inbound while holding, then cleared, you may cross over the NDB, in this case, and descend to you MDA. But in this case you must maintain 9,100 while holding and only have 2 miles from the FAF to the MAP. That is what I had meant.

Thanks again

 

[DC8 Flyer]

I have a question, and I may have misread what you did, but why did you do a parallel entry when the missed would have setup for a teardrop entry? If you did a teardrop you would be on about a 035 heading and on the procedure turn (basically) when ATC cleared your for the approach.

Again I might have misunderstood what approach you where coming missed off of.

 

[jackotron]

At 75 knots, with a standard rate turn to the left, you roll out on about a 060' magnetic bearing. That is why I did a parallel.

Jack

 

[DC8 Flyer]

At 75 knots, with a standard rate turn to the left, you roll out on about a 060' magnetic bearing. That is why I did a parallel.

Jack

There you go, Im stuck in the 160 knots missed speed, mode. Makes sense now. You would still have been legal and safe by turning inbound after you were cleared and after a minute, descending to the appropriate altitude and shooting the approach without making another PT.

The pit fall you can run into is if there is someone stacked up above you waiting to do the same approach and ATC does what they did to you, expecting you to go inbound without another turn. They switch you to advisory and then tell the other guy to descend thinking you are out of the way, and wammo! Not a very likely scenario, but something to think about when you are going missed and the missed hold is over an IAF for the approach you are doing again.