B190Captain
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Resume/Application Question
- Thread starter B190Captain
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English
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10 year history is typical for an application.
For the resume, it depends on your background. I'd list only the years relevant to your flying career. Many professional resume writers recommend the same.
I had a friend show me his resume...the top several jobs were impressive...but as I went further back, there were items such as, professional disc jockey in Tijuana, and Music Store Clerk. No kidding. So, even though he had 7 years at a large regional airline with two type ratings and 3000 PIC turbine experience, the things that stuck in my mind were the jobs he did before getting into aviation. He just didn't come across very well. Also, the jobs went back to the 70's, so his age was really apparent.
I took the recommendation given by someone on this board and sent him to Kathy Sweeney for a resume redo. Now he just has his aviation-related experience on there, with jobs going back 7 or so years. He comes off much more professional without appearing too old.
I'd recommend going to Kathy. It can all be done by email and over the phone.
www.awriteresume.com
For the resume, it depends on your background. I'd list only the years relevant to your flying career. Many professional resume writers recommend the same.
I had a friend show me his resume...the top several jobs were impressive...but as I went further back, there were items such as, professional disc jockey in Tijuana, and Music Store Clerk. No kidding. So, even though he had 7 years at a large regional airline with two type ratings and 3000 PIC turbine experience, the things that stuck in my mind were the jobs he did before getting into aviation. He just didn't come across very well. Also, the jobs went back to the 70's, so his age was really apparent.
I took the recommendation given by someone on this board and sent him to Kathy Sweeney for a resume redo. Now he just has his aviation-related experience on there, with jobs going back 7 or so years. He comes off much more professional without appearing too old.
I'd recommend going to Kathy. It can all be done by email and over the phone.
www.awriteresume.com
B190Captain
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English
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I wouldn't. I think it detracts from seeing you as a pilot. Especially if, as you mentioned, those jobs were over 10 years ago.
Do you have more than one aviation job you can list within the last ten years? if you've been at the same airline for the last ten years, then yes, list a few other jobs that were more than ten years ago. But if you have a normal progression like, flight instructor, then the jobs step up sequentially to where you are now, I'd leave them off.
This is just my opinion...I'm not a professional, and you get what you pay for!
Do you have more than one aviation job you can list within the last ten years? if you've been at the same airline for the last ten years, then yes, list a few other jobs that were more than ten years ago. But if you have a normal progression like, flight instructor, then the jobs step up sequentially to where you are now, I'd leave them off.
This is just my opinion...I'm not a professional, and you get what you pay for!
Most of the professional looking resumes that come across my desk only list the last three or four aviaiton related jobs. Since this is a very transit industry for some pilots the last years years will cause you to go over the one page limit.
Remember, the resume is only a tool to get you the interview. For the most part, you are not hired off of your resume.
Remember, the resume is only a tool to get you the interview. For the most part, you are not hired off of your resume.
On the resume, I don't have enough space. I keep it updated, but only the last few employers are listed. Certainly not ten years worth. I do a certain amount of contract or supplementary flying, seasonal work, etc, in addition to a "traditional" job. Accordingly, there are only a few years worth of history located on the resume.
The resume isn't there to replace a job application. It's just there to alert the employer that you might be the right person to bring in for an interview.
List the relevant work for that employer. If I'm wanting some part time work for a repair station, then I don't necessarily need to list type ratings or flight experience. But the employer is very interested in my inspection and maintenance history. I emphasize that. If I'm wanting to be a relief pilot on a learjet for a company, I don't emphasize crop dusting...I emphasize Part 135 or corporate work done and fill in around that.
The full scope of your employment history will become apparent when you fill in your job application just prior to, or at the time of the interview. (Or at such time as it's given you to complete). But not on the resume.
When filling in your job history, you should include everything. But here's the catch. Often I won't include little jobs I'm doing on the side; you need to be able to show a continuous chain of employment history, and be able to document any gaps in employment. But if I packed parachutes at fred's loft three nights a week while holding a regular freight job...I won't list the loft. If I took a leave of absence for a seasonal temporary position, I'll list the temporary position. See the difference?
Then there are gaps in employment when one isn't employed by anybody, but is an independant contractor...no paperwork, no taxes taken, nobody to contact...just a paycheck. More pilots are doing that these days. If you happen to be one of them, you can incorporate yourself and list yourself as the employer. However, other employers don't necessarily want to contact you to see if you've been a good employee for yourself, if you know what I mean. If you believe the companies to whom you've contracted your services will give you a good recommendation, it may be worth your time to list their information instead. If you'll be doing this, be sure to contact the company and let them know what you have in mind, for professional courtesy.
Keep a comprehensive history to use when filling out applications. You can carry it with you as a reference when going to an interview. Don't stop at ten years; some entities to whom I've applied in the past require much more than 10 years...they went back to junior high school, and wanted every scrap of information since that time. Every address, every old phone number, names of girlfriends, you name it. XXX airline won't require this, and neither will the flight department for Pickards Purple Copies...but it's better to have too much information on hand than not enough. You needn't put it all on the application, but keep it in a database, anyway, for your personal reference.
I like to print it out, and I have several histories to make reference simple. I have one that's just relevant professional work experience as a pilot, one as a mechanic. One doing ag and other special types of flying. One that encompasses everything, and one that includes all my work history. It includes supplementary positions from way back; substitute teaching, tending flowers in a green house, scrubbing floors. Everything. All I need do is refer to the appropriate information in a pinch. It saves time and enables an application or form to be filled out quickly. All my dates and times are already prepared; I just copy them onto the application.
Just a thought.
The resume isn't there to replace a job application. It's just there to alert the employer that you might be the right person to bring in for an interview.
List the relevant work for that employer. If I'm wanting some part time work for a repair station, then I don't necessarily need to list type ratings or flight experience. But the employer is very interested in my inspection and maintenance history. I emphasize that. If I'm wanting to be a relief pilot on a learjet for a company, I don't emphasize crop dusting...I emphasize Part 135 or corporate work done and fill in around that.
The full scope of your employment history will become apparent when you fill in your job application just prior to, or at the time of the interview. (Or at such time as it's given you to complete). But not on the resume.
When filling in your job history, you should include everything. But here's the catch. Often I won't include little jobs I'm doing on the side; you need to be able to show a continuous chain of employment history, and be able to document any gaps in employment. But if I packed parachutes at fred's loft three nights a week while holding a regular freight job...I won't list the loft. If I took a leave of absence for a seasonal temporary position, I'll list the temporary position. See the difference?
Then there are gaps in employment when one isn't employed by anybody, but is an independant contractor...no paperwork, no taxes taken, nobody to contact...just a paycheck. More pilots are doing that these days. If you happen to be one of them, you can incorporate yourself and list yourself as the employer. However, other employers don't necessarily want to contact you to see if you've been a good employee for yourself, if you know what I mean. If you believe the companies to whom you've contracted your services will give you a good recommendation, it may be worth your time to list their information instead. If you'll be doing this, be sure to contact the company and let them know what you have in mind, for professional courtesy.
Keep a comprehensive history to use when filling out applications. You can carry it with you as a reference when going to an interview. Don't stop at ten years; some entities to whom I've applied in the past require much more than 10 years...they went back to junior high school, and wanted every scrap of information since that time. Every address, every old phone number, names of girlfriends, you name it. XXX airline won't require this, and neither will the flight department for Pickards Purple Copies...but it's better to have too much information on hand than not enough. You needn't put it all on the application, but keep it in a database, anyway, for your personal reference.
I like to print it out, and I have several histories to make reference simple. I have one that's just relevant professional work experience as a pilot, one as a mechanic. One doing ag and other special types of flying. One that encompasses everything, and one that includes all my work history. It includes supplementary positions from way back; substitute teaching, tending flowers in a green house, scrubbing floors. Everything. All I need do is refer to the appropriate information in a pinch. It saves time and enables an application or form to be filled out quickly. All my dates and times are already prepared; I just copy them onto the application.
Just a thought.
bobbysamd
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Job history - resume v. application
Just saw this discussion while looking for something.
One way to view this issue is your resume is your document. If you think about it, you can be anything you want to be on your resume. You (or Kathy or someone) should design your resume to call attention to your strengths and to minimize or outright obviate your weaknesses. Therefore, put on your resume the jobs and experience that best showcase your abilities.
The application form is another animal altogether. An app is a legal document. Any intentional omission and/or misrepresentation, if/when caught, could be grounds for termination. For that reason, you have to provide the information that is requested on the app and you have to follow its directions. That does not mean that you cannot present your information in its best light; it means you cannot omit or misrepresent the facts and you must tell the truth.
Some recommend that if you were fired or asked to resign from a job (which is tantamount to termination) that you put for that job "To Be Explained at the Interview" in the square that asks for your reason for leaving. That way, you have not left a square blank, which you must never do on an app, and you have given yourself a chance to present your side of the story, if you're even asked, at the interview.
I second Avbug's suggestion about maintaining a comprehensive employment history. While I can remember every employer I've had since I've been fourteen and the months and years I started and left each one, I cannot remember addresses and contact information as well as I once could because I haven't worked up many apps over the past eleven years. I still have a copy of one of the many SkyWest apps I prepared with all of that information, just in case I need it.
Hope that helps some more. Good luck with your job search.
Just saw this discussion while looking for something.
One way to view this issue is your resume is your document. If you think about it, you can be anything you want to be on your resume. You (or Kathy or someone) should design your resume to call attention to your strengths and to minimize or outright obviate your weaknesses. Therefore, put on your resume the jobs and experience that best showcase your abilities.
The application form is another animal altogether. An app is a legal document. Any intentional omission and/or misrepresentation, if/when caught, could be grounds for termination. For that reason, you have to provide the information that is requested on the app and you have to follow its directions. That does not mean that you cannot present your information in its best light; it means you cannot omit or misrepresent the facts and you must tell the truth.
Some recommend that if you were fired or asked to resign from a job (which is tantamount to termination) that you put for that job "To Be Explained at the Interview" in the square that asks for your reason for leaving. That way, you have not left a square blank, which you must never do on an app, and you have given yourself a chance to present your side of the story, if you're even asked, at the interview.
I second Avbug's suggestion about maintaining a comprehensive employment history. While I can remember every employer I've had since I've been fourteen and the months and years I started and left each one, I cannot remember addresses and contact information as well as I once could because I haven't worked up many apps over the past eleven years. I still have a copy of one of the many SkyWest apps I prepared with all of that information, just in case I need it.
Hope that helps some more. Good luck with your job search.
Resume Writer
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Hi Everyone,
There are a couple of very good points on here. First, the issue that Bobby brought up about the difference between the resume and the application. He is correct that the application is a legal document. I know of two specific cases where people were fired because of what they put on their application. One was a transposing of flight time numbers. Total mistake on his part, but he got very controversial during a union campaign and they went to find anything on this person. Took him 3 years to get his job back with NO back pay. The lesson here? Make a copy of the application and fill that out in pencil. Ensure everything is accurate before you transfer the information to the actual application. If you cannot do this because you are filling out the application at the employer, then be very careful when you are filling it out.
I have had other clients with this similar situation as posted by B190. The airlines will do a 10 year background check. They will be able to uncover any work history that you had during this time from which you received a W-2. If you have done contract work, you should have a 1099 if the amount is over $500 (I think that is the amount) If you did not receive a 1099, then you need to be able to have proof of vendors or perhaps people you rented the aircraft from to verify this employment. Anyone in a professional capacity that can verify the time frame is needed.
I would also like to know how many jobs B190 had in aviation that were flying related. If B190 has only a couple, then I might list some of those in the other areas mentioned. You can spin the fact that you understand other areas of the airline operation to your advantage. I have done this for other clients and it has actually helped them. It gives them something a little different - a well-rounded background.
Avbug also makes some great points. Keep a comprehensive work history. I cannot tell you how many clients I have that cannot remember their dates of employment. This is very important in the airline industry, or for those jobs that require a security clearance.
It is hard to cover every aspect of what someone should or should not include in their work history on this board because everyone is an individual with different work experience. I still, after 18 years of writing resumes, have to decide what is important and not important based upon each individual client.
I remember someone asking in another thread if every pilot resume I put together is a "cookie cutter." Absolutely not, because everyone has a different work history. Just as people who are in sales have different backgrounds. I do not compose cookie cutter resumes for any of my clients. That is why I spend so much time in the initial consultation getting all the information that is unique to that client. I still cannot believe people will pay a service to write their resume, only to fill out a form and never have any contact with their writer. If you are paying for something, personal attention should be afforded to you.
I think some great information was brought out in this thread and I hope it has been helpful.
Kathy
There are a couple of very good points on here. First, the issue that Bobby brought up about the difference between the resume and the application. He is correct that the application is a legal document. I know of two specific cases where people were fired because of what they put on their application. One was a transposing of flight time numbers. Total mistake on his part, but he got very controversial during a union campaign and they went to find anything on this person. Took him 3 years to get his job back with NO back pay. The lesson here? Make a copy of the application and fill that out in pencil. Ensure everything is accurate before you transfer the information to the actual application. If you cannot do this because you are filling out the application at the employer, then be very careful when you are filling it out.
I have had other clients with this similar situation as posted by B190. The airlines will do a 10 year background check. They will be able to uncover any work history that you had during this time from which you received a W-2. If you have done contract work, you should have a 1099 if the amount is over $500 (I think that is the amount) If you did not receive a 1099, then you need to be able to have proof of vendors or perhaps people you rented the aircraft from to verify this employment. Anyone in a professional capacity that can verify the time frame is needed.
I would also like to know how many jobs B190 had in aviation that were flying related. If B190 has only a couple, then I might list some of those in the other areas mentioned. You can spin the fact that you understand other areas of the airline operation to your advantage. I have done this for other clients and it has actually helped them. It gives them something a little different - a well-rounded background.
Avbug also makes some great points. Keep a comprehensive work history. I cannot tell you how many clients I have that cannot remember their dates of employment. This is very important in the airline industry, or for those jobs that require a security clearance.
It is hard to cover every aspect of what someone should or should not include in their work history on this board because everyone is an individual with different work experience. I still, after 18 years of writing resumes, have to decide what is important and not important based upon each individual client.
I remember someone asking in another thread if every pilot resume I put together is a "cookie cutter." Absolutely not, because everyone has a different work history. Just as people who are in sales have different backgrounds. I do not compose cookie cutter resumes for any of my clients. That is why I spend so much time in the initial consultation getting all the information that is unique to that client. I still cannot believe people will pay a service to write their resume, only to fill out a form and never have any contact with their writer. If you are paying for something, personal attention should be afforded to you.
I think some great information was brought out in this thread and I hope it has been helpful.
Kathy
Resume Writer
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The personal attention is no longer free - gave that up at the beginning of April!! 
Resume Writer
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B190Captain
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