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Results of P-3 spin 7G pull out

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pilotyip

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
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Subject: P-3 Mishap Report

P-3 Mishap Report: JAG Man says 2 of 3 pilots short on flight hours. Proper procedures not followed during engine failure. By Andrew Tilghman

Two of the three pilots on board the P-3 Orion that narrowly averted a fatal catastrophe last year when it plummeted nearly 6,000 in 25 seconds were not current with flight-time requirements, an internal Navy report shows. In addition, when the aircraft began to shake violently and an engine malfunctioned, the crew fell into "scope lock" and did not strictly follow the Navy's air training standards, according to the Judge Advocate General Manual investigation, obtained by Navy Times. However, those issues did not result in any disciplinary action stemming from the July 22 incident near Naval Air Station Whidbey Island, Wash., according to the report. The P-3 from Patrol Squadron 1 (VP-1) was conducting a training flight in which one of its four engines was shut down on purpose. But a second engine on the same port wing malfunctioned, rolling the aircraft violently and sending it spiraling to-ward the ground at 290 knots. The plane was pulling more than 5Gs before the aviators were able to restart the first engine to recover at less than 200 feet and land safely. The plane was essentially destroyed - the fuel tank was ripped open, several panels were bent or buckled, and dozens of rivets ripped out as the starboard wing skin peeled away, the report says. It will not be returned to the fleet. The incident came seven months after the Navy had already grounded 39 P-3s; almost one-quarter of the maritime patrol fleet at the time, because of fears that "structural fatigue" could cause wing sections to break off in flight. According to the report, two pilots and an off-duty pilot along with three flight engineers and an observer were on board. One of the pilots had 3.8 flight hours during the previous 30 days, far short of the 10 hours required by Patrol and Reconnaissance Group. A second pilot had 3.3 flight hours, the report says.

Problems that day began after the pilots conducted a simulated engine fire and shut down one of the port engines. The pilot at the controls and the flight engineer "discussed the simulated emergency" and "this discussion resulted in delaying" their procedures to restart the engine, the investigation found. That's when the flight crew noticed engine fluctuations in the second engine on the port wing and shut that engine down before trying to restart the first. The engineering investigation found no malfunction in the No. 2 engine or propeller, and it remains unclear what caused the second engine’s problem, the report says. The plane lost speed and soon fell into a spiraling nosedive. The pilots allowed the third and fourth engine on the plane's other side to remain at maximum power, despite Naval Air Training and Operating Procedures Standardization rules calling for them to cut power down to "flight idle" levels. The stall drove a counterclockwise rotation and the yaw produced by the two engines at maximum power.

According to the report's conclusions, "Non-compliance with NATOPS recommended Out of Control Flight procedures pro- longed the recovery to controlled flight." The pilots' "failure to meet the [wing training manual] proficiency minimums fostered an environment in such that instrument scans and [crew resource management] skills were not sufficient to prevent the series of events that led to the mishap," the report says. The flight instructor and patrol plane commander were sent be-fore a Field Naval Aviator Evaluation Board, the report says. A Navy spokesman declined to disclose the results of those boards. After the incident investigation, Patrol and Reconnaissance Wing 10 revised its rules so that pilots who are not current on proficiency requirements will not be assigned as a patrol plane commander with- out approval from a commanding officer, according to the investigation’s endorsements. The wing commander also recommended reviewing the flight proficiency guidelines to clarify minimum hours and establish re-medial actions when those are not met
 
pics! pics! pics!

pls.

100-1/2
 
PIC's and stuff

What is a Patrol and Recon Wing? Is that a combination of VP and VQ?
It is the Wing at Wibney (sp.?) Island it has both VP squadrons flying P-3C's and a VQ Squadron flying the EP-3. This is squadron that had the mid-air with the Chinese Mig a few years ago. BTW here are the pics
http://navlog.org/p-3_strike.html
 
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"The pilots allowed the third and fourth engine on the plane's other side to remain at maximum power"

Am I the only one that is floored by this?

SOP or no SOP training...isn't this intuitive instinct to pull those suckers back to idle once the thing rolled off?
 
The New Navy

"The pilots allowed the third and fourth engine on the plane's other side to remain at maximum power"

Am I the only one that is floored by this?

SOP or no SOP training...isn't this intuitive instinct to pull those suckers back to idle once the thing rolled off?
There is SOP, there is training, but it is too expensive to fly the airplanes. So currency suffers. Everyone of my old bud P-3 pilots would recognzie the proper response to this situation. It us something you practiced and checked on a regular basis. That is flying on two engines and loosing one of the good engines.
 
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There is SOP, there is training, but it is too expensive to fly the airplanes. So currency suffers. Everyone of my old bud P-3 pilots would recognzie the proper response to this situation. It us something you practiced and checked on a regular basis. That is flying on two engines and loosing one of the good engines.

You can argue currency all you want, however, this was a loss of SA by all in the flight station that day. This samething happened over 20 some years ago....same drill!
 
Yes East Coast, plus KMTC

Is that all east coast?
But we deployed worldwide, I flew out of the Phillipines, Thailand, Japan, Adak, Guam and Viet Nam
 
Since some here have flown P-3s, I have to ask: What are the operational load factor limits? Do you really buy this 7g story? I know the Electra is built like a tank, but c'mon - 7gs? First of all, I wouldn't figure the elevator would have enough authority to command anywhere near that sort of load even at speeds well in excess of Vne or Vmo or whatever serves as limiting airspeed.

It sounds from the report that there is some sort of data recorder, and maybe it records load factors. Most transport category airplanes have 2 or 2.5 g limits depending on configuration. Has anyone here ever pulled even 2gs in these kind of planes? If anyone has, I'd suspect it'd be in a P-3 or it's ilk, but either way, it's not easy, especially in an upright seat! 1.5gs feels like you're pulling the wings off! What kind of load factors do the firefighters using Electras or Hercs typically experience?

The report also makes it sound like the crew was trying to restart the engine or engines while trying to recover from departed flight. Talk about multi-tasking!:rolleyes:
 
Since some here have flown P-3s, I have to ask: What are the operational load factor limits? Do you really buy this 7g story? I know the Electra is built like a tank, but c'mon - 7gs? First of all, I wouldn't figure the elevator would have enough authority to command anywhere near that sort of load even at speeds well in excess of Vne or Vmo or whatever serves as limiting airspeed.

It sounds from the report that there is some sort of data recorder, and maybe it records load factors. Most transport category airplanes have 2 or 2.5 g limits depending on configuration. Has anyone here ever pulled even 2gs in these kind of planes? If anyone has, I'd suspect it'd be in a P-3 or it's ilk, but either way, it's not easy, especially in an upright seat! 1.5gs feels like you're pulling the wings off! What kind of load factors do the firefighters using Electras or Hercs typically experience?

The report also makes it sound like the crew was trying to restart the engine or engines while trying to recover from departed flight. Talk about multi-tasking!:rolleyes:

According to my 15 year old NATOPS, the P-3C limits are +3 to -1 up to normal max takeoff weight. I've seen the +3 exceeded slightly performing the break, and the -1 exceeded when manually calibrating the MAD detector, but never came close to the numbers in YIP's post. The P-3 is quite a bit stronger than the Electra however, and a NOAA bird pulled +5.5 and -3.5 when they almost lost it penetrating Hugo in 89. This aircraft suffered little airframe damage and returned to service after a couple of months, so 7 G's and heavy damage is plausable.

MofY
 
Its been a while since i read the report, but 7g's sounds high- IIRC it being more in the 5 range. The FE, on his own, did in fact restart the shutdown engine while in the high speed spiral- thats what saved the crew!
 
I do not recall the exact number, but you will notice the pictures as a result of exceding the G limit caused severe damage.
 
Thanks for the responses! I guess I'll have to take a Mythbusters "plausible" verdict, then. At the same time, I'd figure 5.5gs in a hurricane would most likely be brought on by wind shear in addition to elevator, not flight control input alone. The report did say the 7gs was experienced in a roll, and asymmetric load limits are usually less than symmetric. Also, most ultimate load limits are set at 150% of the design limit, so with a 3g operational limit, the ultimate limit (where structure should fail outright, not just pop rivets and crack spars) should be around 4.5gs. Regardless, I'd say that's one lucky crew that they're all still with us. The photos of the damage are pretty amazing.
 
Regardless, I'd say that's one lucky crew that they're all still with us.

Does anyone know if these guys are still flying? In the civilian world they would have been busted back down to private pilots (after they took a private pilot competency/check ride).
 
That went to a pilot disposition board

Does anyone know if these guys are still flying? In the civilian world they would have been busted back down to private pilots (after they took a private pilot competency/check ride).
The results of the board were not posted with the article. I know guys who were grounded for less
 

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