Rest of MEC takes aim at RC4

[lowecur]

Just like I said yesterday, these 4 guys and their senior constituancy are set for retirement, and it's more important for them to remembered for their scorched earth policy. They plan on job actions from their backers and will institute any delay tactics they can muster before a new contract is mandated by the judge. Hopefully, the judge will see through this vail of deceit and give mgt what they want asap, including waiving the seniority rules.

LF's are up 4 pts from a year ago on mainline, and 7.5 pts on PSA and MDA for Sept. This is excellent considering all rumor and innuendo that has been circulating about poor LFs.


10/05/04 - US Airways pilots rip union leadership

PITTSBURGH, Oct 05, 2004 (United Press International via COMTEX) -- Leaders of the pilots union for US Airways of Virginia are coming under fire for not letting members vote on an 18 percent pay cut proposal.

The focus of membership ire is two officials from Philadelphia, John Crocker and Dan Von Bargen, and two from Pittsburgh, Fred Freshwater and John Brookman, the Post-Gazette reported Tuesday.

The union's Master Executive Council, which the four control, was meeting in Pittsburgh Tuesday to decide whether to send the proposal to its membership, something they declined to do last week.

Even if the four allow members to vote on the 18 percent pay cuts, results might not be in before Thursday when US Airways will ask a bankruptcy court judge to impose a temporary 23 percent pay cut on its labor groups that have not already agreed to concessions.

The union leadership's delay, in other words, could force an additional 5 percentage point pay cut for pilots who were willing to accept the 18 percent reduction last week, several pilots said.

"No four representatives have the right to throw the dice of everybody's career on a hunch," said Boston pilots representative Garland Jones.

And pilots chairman Bill Pollock said, "I will never understand the motivations of these four guys."

Copyright 2004 by United Press International.

 

[typhoonpilot]

When I first saw that they weren't allowing the TA to go to the membership for a vote I thought it was not right. I still don't think it is right, but there is a major problem with the TA and it will not very likely pass as long as it stays in it's present form. The TA cancels the contract's fragmentation, succesorship, and contingent aquisition right clauses. In other words, it makes it possible for the company to be sold off piece by piece with no pilot getting the right to go with the assets. Management could, and most likely would, sell the airline's assets off to repay Bronner and the Alabama pension fund prior to a full liquidation. Anybody that votes yes for the TA is voting themselves out of a job. The pilot body would be better off with a judge deciding on a 23% pay cut as long as the other contract clauses stay in effect. Then, at least, some pilots would go with the assets, much like the Pan Am and Eastern pilots did.


Typhoonpilot

 

[FDJ2]

"No four representatives have the right to throw the dice of everybody's career on a hunch," said Boston pilots representative Garland Jones.

Ah, yes they do. It's my understanding that this wasn't even a tentative agreement, and even if it were, before it can be passed on to the membership for ratification it must first make it out of the MEC.

 

[GVEtrucker]

What Freeshwater and the rest of the RC4 are insisting on is complete contract language. On the other side of the table is a very shrewd negotiator and VP of HR, Jerry Glass. Mr. Glass has a long history of striking a deal with the USAir MEC with major details to be negotiated at a later date. Seems it has never worked out to the pilot group’s advantage and when I left there a few months ago there were over 260 outstanding grievances.

Glass is a master of bait and switch and 11 hour deals that look good to a desperate pilot group, but fall apart in the light of day. I can see him cutting lose an entire fleet type with the pilots on that fleet type being furloughed out of seniority. Freshwater, Bookman and their counterparts in PHL have promised to bring an agreement to those they represent. I believe they will live up to this promise if management truly wants a deal. I applaud them for their backbone.

If USAir sinks in to oblivion, I am sure the press will blame the Unions for their failure to protect the rank and file. What is truly to blame is a history of bad management desicions and the inability to service the airline’s debt load.

 

[DiscoDuck]

Lowecur,


LF's are up 4 pts from a year ago on mainline, and 7.5 pts on PSA and MDA for Sept. This is excellent considering all rumor and innuendo that has been circulating about poor LFs.

Excuse my ignorance, but what does LF stand for?

 

[Boeingman]

Then, at least, some pilots would go with the assets, much like the Pan Am and Eastern pilots did.


Typhoonpilot

Now that is an interresting comment. Are you talking the same kind of deal the USAir pilots offered the EAL pilots during those asset purchases?

 

[Networ-King]

Disco,

LF= Load Factor

There has to be a line that even ALPA should not cross when mismanagement keeps coming back for more and more concessions. I hope these guys know what they're doing for the sake of the rest of the pilot group.

I have also heard that there is a slow down in PHL.... is this true or am I making this up? Good luck to the USAir folks....................

Lowecur,


LF's are up 4 pts from a year ago on mainline, and 7.5 pts on PSA and MDA for Sept. This is excellent considering all rumor and innuendo that has been circulating about poor LFs.

Excuse my ignorance, but what does LF stand for?

 

[lowecur]

What Freeshwater and the rest of the RC4 are insisting on is complete contract language. On the other side of the table is a very shrewd negotiator and VP of HR, Jerry Glass. Mr. Glass has a long history of striking a deal with the USAir MEC with major details to be negotiated at a later date. Seems it has never worked out to the pilot group’s advantage and when I left there a few months ago there were over 260 outstanding grievances.

Glass is a master of bait and switch and 11 hour deals that look good to a desperate pilot group, but fall apart in the light of day. I can see him cutting lose an entire fleet type with the pilots on that fleet type being furloughed out of seniority. Freshwater, Bookman and their counterparts in PHL have promised to bring an agreement to those they represent. I believe they will live up to this promise if management truly wants a deal. I applaud them for their backbone.

If USAir sinks in to oblivion, I am sure the press will blame the Unions for their failure to protect the rank and file. What is truly to blame is a history of bad management desicions and the inability to service the airline’s debt load.

What is amazing in this day and age is the fact that Freshwater and crew are acting like they have a leg to stand on. Contract capitulation is a fact of the times, just as bloated contracts were a few years back. Take your medicine and move on. The judge will look at what is best for the majority. Having 18,000 workers and being viable, is better than 28,000 collecting umemployment and shifting the $2.3B retirement burden to the taxpayers.

 

[Boeingman]

sorry, I just can't pass this one up

What is amazing in this day and age is the fact that Freshwater and crew are acting like they have a leg to stand on. .

Not a question of a leg to stand on. It is a fact that many have zero faith in management due to the billions in concessions already blown to date. What has changed? Don't forget this group of managers already admitted they screwed up and "miscalculated". So you think they should just give more? To the same group of people running the show?

It comes down to credibility. U management has none with the employees.
You get to a point that you just don't care anymore. I know the feeling, I was there several times myself.

Contract capitulation is a fact of the times, .

Except in managements case for the millions in golden parachutes paid out to keep these brilliant MBA's on the property. Did you read the insulting offer to share the pain today?

If anything, U management has seemed to really lose a grip on reality with their employees.

just as bloated contracts were a few years back. .

Careful there, you're sounding a bit jealous.

Take your medicine and move on. .

They have already several times. Fact is they are all about to overdose.
The management doctor has been writing bad prescriptions and should be sued for malpractice for killing the patient.

The judge will look at what is best for the majority. .

Not a shoe in. Look at what happened with UAL when they went back crying for more cuts.

Having 18,000 workers and being viable, is better than 28,000 collecting umemployment and shifting the $2.3B retirement burden to the taxpayers.

Viable? You're kidding right? Or are you another one of them analysts that
think pay and benefit cuts need to continue to subsidize piss poor management?

 

[Mugs]

"Hopefully, the judge will see through this vail of deceit and give mgt what they want asap, including waiving the seniority rules."


What a disgusting thought. Not at all surprising to see the likes of lowecur promoting it however. Shut USAirways down and re-hire anybody you want at "Bama Air" or whatever. At USAirways, I would hope, the seniority list stays intact or the company no longer exists. I could not imagine emerging from a blood bath with a job only because I happened to be one of those current and qualified on the fleet management decided to keep. The fact that lowecur so casually floats the idea is yet another reflection of how disloyal corporate America has become to the American workforce. Screw the workers that have been around a couple of decades, collect a multi-million dollar bonus (Siegal) for hanging around a year or two. Dismantling the seniority list goes far beyond the rational tools for survival.

 

[Boeingman]

Hopefully, the judge will see through this vail of deceit and give mgt what they want asap, including waiving the seniority rules.

Incredible statement. And one that is so telling.

But I'll humor you. If it happens (and I doubt it will), you can bet your last dollar the meltdown that will follow will wipe out the company.

By the way, speaking of deceit, why does USAir have over 260 grievance violations pending between the company and the union?

 

[Mugs]

Boeingman:

Nobody could "edit" a post better. Well done.

 

[Boeingman]

Boeingman:

Nobody could "edit" a post better. Well done.

Thanks Mugs.

At least the bickering has helped me accomplish something!!!! LOL

 

[lowecur]

"Hopefully, the judge will see through this vail of deceit and give mgt what they want asap, including waiving the seniority rules."


What a disgusting thought. And not sending this contract to the membership doesn't turn your stomach? Not at all surprising to see lowecur promoting it however. Thank you. Shut USAirways down and re-hire anybody you want at "Bama Air" or whatever. Yeah, that makes sense. At USAirways, I would hope, the seniority list stays intact or the company no longer exists. Yeah, it's all about principal, right? When are you going to realize the power transfer has taken place. It's mgt's turn at the wheel, so get used to it for 10 years or so. I could not imagine emerging from a blood bath with a job only because I happened to be one of those current and qualified on the fleet management decided to keep. You could if you have a wife and three kids to protect. Freshwater and his "over-the-hill gang"(kids grown up & big nest egg) could give a rat's ass about about the junior people. He and his cohorts have theirs, and it's time for to scorch the earth for the "good of ALPA." Do you think Fred would be voting the same way if he were a 40 year old CA? Hah! The fact that lowecur so casually floats the idea is yet another reflection of how disloyal corporate America has become to the American workforce. Screw the workers that have been around a couple of decades, collect a multi-million dollar bonus (Siegal) for hanging around a year or two. I'd cain him myself if I had the chance. Dismantling the seniority list goes far beyond the rational tools for survival. I don't think it would have ever come to that if these myopic old militants would just peacefully retire.

Oh well, let's say it again....NEVER FORGET!

 

[lowecur]

Incredible statement. Thank you. And one that is so telling. Well, I guess you could say that.

But I'll humor you. If it happens (and I doubt it will), you can bet your last dollar the meltdown that will follow will wipe out the company. That's exactly why UAIR needs it, and exactly why the judge will allow it. You see they talk about the cost to retrain as the main reason, but the real motivation is to block job actions that would take down the company. If seniority was allowed to move to the Airbus' fleet, I'm sure 20-35% of them would "slow down", or "sick out." The judge is getting an earful from the Senators from PA and Lakefield on what is needed to survive.

By the way, speaking of deceit, why does USAir have over 260 grievance violations pending between the company and the union? Probably all guys over 57.

.....

 

[Mugs]

What turns my stomach is a management team that insists on such a proposal. I can guarantee you lowecur, if a TA to vote on ever got in my hands with such a provision, I would vote no and the wife and kids could watch me check the box. You are dead wrong if you believe that the majority at USAirways will let that fly, junior (a relative term at US) or not. You bet principal and integrity are involved here, something you apparently lack. I don't believe even Lorenzo tried to push an idea as extreme as the one you are so infatuated with.

 

[Boeingman]

Thank you.

It wasn't a compliment. But your answer was typical. It was foolish of me to think it might give you a reason to stop and pause about what you're saying is far out of the realm of actual contractual and time honored airline practices.

Just as USAir management is failing to grasp that simple concept and the ramifications which would result from it.

Well, I guess you could say that.

So what gives here? Are you part of USAir management? I find it interesting you come on to a pilot board, toss continued verbal grenades and refuse to listen to others within the ranks of whom you complain about. If you're just an investor, you surely don't take the advice of those with years of experience within the industry.

That's exactly why UAIR needs it,

What U needs right now, in the very least is a management team that wants to run an airline by concentrating on the real problems. All they are doing now is nothing but a rehash of the same old song and dance. Make up for gross failures and miscalculations on a mangement level and subsidize those mistakes with continued cuts in pay and benefits. What is even more incredulous is they insist on cutting those from the only people that will really save the airline, those with years invested in the company. Not from some slick MBA's that have bloated (sound familiar?) pay packages who cut and run with a couple of years of tenure.

You didn't seem to have a problem with the obvious inequity of the token management cuts or the effect it would have on morale? Care to answer?

and exactly why the judge will allow it.

Even the judge is not dumb enough to mess with the seniority system. I know this is a wet dream for management, but it isn't going to happen. Never has, never will. For your perusal, brush up on the latest at UAL. Like I told you before 1113's are not a carte blanc for management. I would think it will be argued that U management has been thrown the concession life preserver, several times already. I asked you before, what good did that do?

You see they talk about the cost to retrain as the main reason,

Cost of doing business. Moot point.

but the real motivation is to block job actions that would take down the company.

But again you are missing the point. The judge can not prevent an enivitable result. Nor can USAir afford to put up with a campaign that would slow the airline down to a crawl with legal and legitimate job actions. Look at UAL in 2000. The revenue strangulation would finish off the company.

If seniority was allowed to move to the Airbus' fleet, I'm sure 20-35% of them would "slow down", or "sick out."

Huh? And USAir could afford 20 - 35% of a sick out campaign? Newsflash, in an airline environment it doesn't even take this much to grind things to a halt.
Judging from what is happening now, I think your estimates are on the low side.

The judge is getting an earful from the Senators from PA and Lakefield on what is needed to survive.

Just what USAir needs right now. Some know it all loud mouth politicians who don't know their arse for a hole in the ground regarding the operations and finances of airlines. Maybe U management could enlist some toothsayers and witch doctors as well? Both would do just as good as these 2 clowns from PA.

But I would guess that even a toothsayer would of forseen the idiocy of the FLL superhub idea. Amazingly USAir abandoned that idea when they realized there was an 1100 pound gorilla about 19 miles away in MIA. A minor problem named American Airlines. That alone should give you a clue.

Probably all guys over 57.

Doubtful, but that resentment by you of long term dedicated employees is interesting, but very transparent. When you really think about it, that same anti employee attitude is part of the reason USAir finds themself with the position they are in today. Management has had their way over there for quite a while. They got everything they asked for in the last bankruptcy, yet they are on the verge of permanent failure again in less than 2 years. It seems obvious to me the source of the real problems.

 

[Boeingman]

I don't believe even Lorenzo tried to push an idea as extreme as the one you are so infatuated with.

Maybe he is Lorenzo and is banging his head against the wall for not trying it?

Seriously though, even Frank was smart enough to know that this particular idea was an atomic time bomb that would tank the company.

 

[lowecur]

[/i]
Doubtful, but that resentment by you of long term dedicated employees is interesting, but very transparent. When you really think about it, that same anti employee attitude is part of the reason USAir finds themself with the position they are in today. Management has had their way over there for quite a while. They got everything they asked for in the last bankruptcy, yet they are on the verge of permanent failure again in less than 2 years. It seems obvious to me the source of the real problems.

Well, I've got Curly, and Larry complimenting each other on great posts. Perhaps Moe will show up soon.

What you fail to acknowledge is that two very high ranking pilot's have chastized this charade of a MEC. You have 4 reps, because they represent the majority of pilots at UAIR, calling the shots on a 12 member council. They will not release the contract proposal to the general membership, because they know it would pass. In other words, they feel the membership (average age 53) is not savy enough to understand the provisions of the contract they would be voting on. BS, they want the airline....gone..period, and if they release the contract to the general membership vote, they lose their control.

With Freshwater and his ilk(including you two), it's all about making a statement at the expense of the company. In other words, to hell with what the majority wants.

If Freshwater were so sure that he has enough of the membership to cause mortal job actions, he would release the contract for a vote. All Fred is doing is giving Lakefield more ammunition to get what he wants and more from the judge.

I also find it amazing that pilots love to sit on the sidelines and criticize mgt. Just what makes you think that you're smart enough to turn around the legacy carriers that are all in trouble at this point. Go ahead give me your plan on what it takes to save AMR, UAL, DAL, NWA, and maybe CAL with oil on it's way to $60. Should they all have been turned into LUV over the years? One or two fleet types, point to point service. I think your real gripe is mgt makes too much money, and you would hire people to run an airline from the ranks of retired pilots at age 60. Yeah, that's the ticket.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Imperial Pa.

"The union representing the US Airways pilots voted tuesday to send out a concessionary contract to its 3200 pilots that is meant to save the troubled airline $300 million a Year. The tentative agreement, reached after a sometimes contentious union meeting that lasted for about 11 hours, calls for a 5 year pay cut of 18%, slashed vacation time and cuts to benefits. However, US Airways said it still intends to ask a bankruptcy judge thursday to make temporary cuts of 23% on all union workers - including pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, ramp workers and customs agents - and make cuts in its retirement plan. A judge could rule within the next week as to whether the airline is entitled to make those harsher cuts."

This morning in the 'Al Jezeera constitution'...sorry the Atlanta paper.