RESPECT - Guys at the majors read this

[PCL Flt-ops]

This post is aimed at pilots who are at the majors (and also pilots who have been at the regionals before getting to the majors).

After being at a regional/commuter airline for several years, my general feeling is that regional pilots don't get any respect from the people of other departments. Mainly Crew Scheduling, Crew Planning.... and also dispatch and maintenance. And of course, there is zero respect from management personel. Some of the shi.t that I have seen and heard (and had done to me) you wouldn't believe. It's as if we are garbage and are simply crap.

I definitely don't think Delta 767 Captains are dispected as much as we are.

Opinions and comments please.

 

[FLB717]

You dont need any opinions. I think you see it clear as crystal.

 

[Freight Dog]

What do you expect? You are a commuter pilot, you paid for your job, you are willing to work for no retirement, **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** wages and work rules. Why SHOULD anyone give you respect?

For a minute, I thought CitationMan was being an a$$... and even though he came across as one, he is right. One only needs to look at most regionals' contracts, look at the equipment being flown and there's your answer.

 

[klhoard]

Ouch

When you get knocked down around here, don't be looking for a helping hand to get back up. . . . expect a boot to the chin!!

 

[Freight Dog]

It's sad... but the good news is, it can be fixed. However, it takes cojones, and will to walk away which is kinda hard given that you need that jet time to get hired places...

 

[Fly-n-high]

I will repeat what citationman said but in a more gentle way.

Regional airlines are notorious for low wages, poor working conditions, and generally poor benifits. They are also known for their general disregard of the pilot groups. Everybody knows this. This is the way it's been for a while. So for someone to go to a regional and then complain about the working conditions is ridiculous. That does not mean that you are wrong...it just means that you're telling us what we already know.

One big problem is that many regional pilots will "settle for less" because they think that they will be at their regional for only a short period of time...enough time to upgrade and build up their resumes. They accept lower wages so that they can fly the 70 seaters or pick up more Connection or Express flying.

Well, when you agree to fly the larger planes for less money you screw everybody else (regionals and majors) in the process. Is that respectable?

This doesn't mean that they are bad people by any means. But the regional pilots better stop settling for garbage.

 

[LAXSaabdude]

For a minute, I thought CitationMan was being an a$$...

In a multiple choice test, they always tell you to trust your first instinct.

I think this is another valid example of that advice.

LAXSaabdude.

 

[pipejockey]

Everybody complains and moans that the regionals are hurting the industry with their poor contracts (which I agree they are) but no one wants to discuss what can be done.

Keep in mind no one much discussed this issue prior to 9/11 as most of the majors were hiring and none had any furloghed. We need to get passenger levels back to where they were for starters. The number of people who have turned their backs on the airline industry is appaling! The cowardice of those people makes me sick.

Comair began the process but now there is little leverage for the other Regionals to take a stand. How does a regional airlines pilot group take a strong stand when the Major Airline they contract with will just bring in the lowest bidder (AKA mesa and the like). The only way I feel that the bar can start to be raised again is for ALL regional pilots as a whole to stand together. It cant be done company by company. Support needs to come from all regional pilot groups.

I don't know exactly what must happen for a strike to be authorized, obviously contract negotiations that are at a stand still like at Mesaba, but if Mesaba strikes NWA will more than likely look to a contract carrier like Trans-States or Mesa. With that said, the Airline industry must be forced to realize that no Regional airline pilot groups will accept any concessions of any kind at any time. How can this be made clear? Perhaps sick-outs on a large scale at ALL regional airlines throughout the systems of every carrier to show support for a pilot group at another regional carrier who's contract negotiations are at a stand still. If Mesaba goes on strike, not one regional pilot should accept a route that was Mesabas. That means Pinnacle pilots must stand together and say NO! It must be the pilot group as a whole who says no, not just the Pinnacle pilots being given a Mesaba run that given day, the individual pilots have no power, the GROUP does. Anyway you get my point.

Most of you who post here have airline experience I can only dream of having, so some of you may feel my ideas are niave. But instead of bitc&ing and moaning how about some ideas that can be used to make most regional airlines a career, if one chooses that path, instead of a stepping stone and to protect the greater than 70 seat flying for the Majors, which will allow those who dream of making it to a major in the future still a possibility.

 

[GogglesPisano]

There are a lot of RJ Captains who make more than narrowbody captains flying freight or supplemental.

What's a typical DC8 captain make at FineAir or Arrow?
How about a captain at Ryan? USA3000?

 

[SWA GUY]

As a former regional pilot I can sympathize, I've seen it first hand too.

However, and don't take this the wrong way, RESPECT is earned not granted.

I hope things improve for you. But, you are the one who has to make things happen. Mgmt, Skeds, Disp, etc. are not going to do it for you.

Give them hell and make them sit up and listen!

 

[yaks]

respect

Can you say "national seniority list"?

 

[pipejockey]

perhaps an RJ Captain can Earn a decent buck at Comair or ACA or others, but I think the first officer pay needs to be brought up considerably. Max Mesa FO pay on the RJ based on their old contract was $2902 a month based on 84 hours a month! How do you get married and have kids and a home on that? And I understand they took concessions so now it must be worse. A Captain there was at $6161 a month based on 84 hours, again old contract.

I get this from the air inc salary survey which isnt that great since they dont give hourly rates, just monthly rates based on a given total of hours that they indicate.

Rates at Atlas based on their new contract are:

FO Maximum seniority 12 years 6710 per month
Capt. Maximun seniority 12 years 9586 a month
based on 65 hours a month

now thats a joke for 747 flight crew!!

 

[GogglesPisano]

perhaps an RJ Captain can Earn a decent buck at Comair or ACA or others, but I think the first officer pay needs to be brought up considerably. Max Mesa FO pay on the RJ based on their old contract was $2902 a month based on 84 hours a month! How do you get married and have kids and a home on that? And I understand they took concessions so now it must be worse. A Captain there was at $6161 a month based on 84 hours, again old contract.

I get this from the air inc salary survey which isnt that great since they dont give hourly rates, just monthly rates based on a given total of hours that they indicate.

Rates at Atlas based on their new contract are:

FO Maximum seniority 12 years 6710 per month
Capt. Maximun seniority 12 years 9586 a month
based on 65 hours a month

now thats a joke for 747 flight crew!!

12-year Airbus Captain at ACA ($139/hr x 75 hour guarantee) = $10,425/mo.

Are we still a "commuter?"

 

[pipejockey]

I hope ACA's endeavor as a national carrier (I hate to say LCC) is succesful! Good Luck. I was just saying that as of now you guys are still UA express, and as a regional your senior Captains can earn 90,000 plus not including per diem.

By the way, I just checked Polar's pay

On contract ammendable 12/1/2002 I dont know if they have a new one yet but...

Senior Capt. 10+ years $8883 on 70 hours a month, and like Atlas, all 747's. Thats barely what RJ Captains are earning, plus they have no retirement either. To me thats just not right.

 

[b747dogg]

Your math is a little off.

Atlas pay scale at end of current contract on a 65 hour monthly guarantee.

Year Capt F/O F/E
1 $118.33 $74.55 $74.55
2 $122.93 $86.05 $86.05
3 $128.31 $89.82 $89.82
4 $135.23 $94.66 $94.66
5 $142.93 $100.05 $100.05
6 $150.06 $105.04 $105.04
7 $157.56 $110.29 $110.29
8 $162.31 $113.62 $113.62
9 $167.17 $117.02 $117.02
10 $172.18 $120.53 $120.53
11 $173.90 $121.73 $121.73
12 $175.64 $122.95 $122.95

I agree B747 rates should be higher, but compare them to the new AA or UAL rates. Then you'll see who has the joke pay rates! Also I never saw a 2nd year B777 or B747 Captain at AA or UAL.
Enjoy!!

 

[WrightAvia]

Can you say "national seniority list"?

Yea...just what I want to do...change jobs every time there is a move up or move back in the industry, because of a national list.

No thankyou. Take your job where you can find it and if you don't work hard and make the business YOU work for successful...too freaking bad. I sure as hell don't want to have to be uprooted from a job, just because of some communist national seniority list, where people can be as lazy and unproductive as they want to be and if the outfit they work for goes under...they will just get someone elses job because of seniority.

I don't think so. Sounds like a bunch of communists have been sitting around smoking their hope dope again.

 

[Sniper@YourFeet]

Wow! Where do I start?

What do you expect? You are a commuter pilot . . . Why SHOULD anyone give you respect?

For a minute, I thought CitationMan was being an a$$... and even though he came across as one, he is right.

Well, it all starts with being respected by your peers. I don’t know more than a handful of 20+ year airline CA’s who give two hoots who you fly for as long as you didn’t cross a picket line. A pilot is a pilot, and, until we can respect each other, it’s asking WAY too much for management or the general public to respect us. Act like adults, like professionals, like pilots – not like babies.

I don't know exactly what must happen for a strike to be authorized, obviously contract negotiations that are at a stand still like at Mesaba, but if Mesaba strikes NWA will more than likely look to a contract carrier like Trans-States or Mesa.

And neither would fly it, b/c it’d be ‘struck work’. It is insulting that one would even think more than a handful of Mesa (not Freedom, Mesa) or TSA pilots would cover this flying. Again, have more respect for your fellow pilots.

Max Mesa FO pay on the RJ based on their old contract was $2902 a month based on 84 hours a month! And I understand they took concessions so now it must be worse.

I get this from the air inc salary survey which isnt that great . . .

AIR Inc, huh? What other ‘facts’ do you get from them? Did you know there’s a shortage of pilots in the US right now?
For the record, Mesa did not concede any part of their contract. Max min. bid. guarantee Mesa FO pay on the RJ is $31,886.40 per year (9th year), though their most junior jet CA is 2/2/00 as of 2/03, so he’s making $49,458.50 per year min bid right now. (the pay rates can be had off Airlinepilotcontracts.com, and I got the most junior CA hire date by . . . asking a Mesa guy what it was) Though I think you posted these #’s in an effort to disrespect Mesa guys. Why would you want to demean a fellow pilot?

Until we start treating each other with respect, management never will.

 

[Andy]

Yea...just what I want to do...change jobs every time there is a move up or move back in the industry, because of a national list.

No thankyou. Take your job where you can find it and if you don't work hard and make the business YOU work for successful...too freaking bad. I sure as hell don't want to have to be uprooted from a job, just because of some communist national seniority list, where people can be as lazy and unproductive as they want to be and if the outfit they work for goes under...they will just get someone elses job because of seniority.

I don't think so. Sounds like a bunch of communists have been sitting around smoking their hope dope again.

You make very valid points. I have always been opposed to a national seniority list, even during UAL's darkest days (and they're not out of the woods yet).

 

[pipejockey]

Thank you b747dogg for correcting my error on the pay scales. Thats Air Inc. for you. I wish they would just give the hourly rates instead of the way they present it. They also state that Atlas Air has a 62 hour gaurantee not 65 but I'll take your word for it, I'm guessing you may work for them. And I'm glad to hear Atlas must be hiring if you have 2nd year Captains.

And sniper@yourfeet, I did not mean my comment about Trans States or Mesa to come across like it apparently has. What I meant was that if Mesaba strikes for a better contract, after it's all said and done I doubt NWA will grow Mesaba, they will bring in Trans States or Mesa who seem to low-ball all the wholly owned airlines and even some of the other contract carriers like ACA.

And thanx for the link, Air Inc's salary survey is ok for getting in the ball park but it's not precise. But the $31886 you stated Mesa's 9 year FO's earn is actually less by a few thousand what I quoted, so obviously no disrespect to Mesa. I know they were fighting freedumb air when they signed their contract. I think it's ashame they could not hold out for a better contract, it comes down to what I've said before...the regional pilots need to stand as one. Mesa pilots should have been able to count on most pilots to say NO to freedumb and refuse to sign on with them, but too many people will sell their soul to fly an airliner and management knows it.

 

[Huck]

The only worse job I ever had than regional flying was flying Citations. $100/day, absolutely no benefits, living off a beeper seven days a week, picking cracker crumbs up off the carpet between legs, getting reprimanded because the ice was melting while deviating around thunderstorms.... I got more respect in the front end of a Brakilia than I ever did in the lobby of Signature.

BTW, I love people that blame low salaries on them that make them. It's the free market, people - even with contracts and lawyers. UAL guys had the best lawyers, the best contract, the best of everything - and their pay has plummeted. Get mad at the sun for setting - it makes just as much sense.