Resigning seniority

[getfurloaded]

Bored and curious,

Just wondering how many major airline furloughees would resign their seniority for a job at ATA, AirTran, Frontier or Jet Blue. Only mention these 4 as they are probably in the best shape of the smaller majors and better nationals.

This survey isnt intended for the real senior furloughees that are only a couple of numbers from being called back but more for the middle of the pack ones and lower. The ones that could stand a chance to be stuck out on the street for several years, only to go back to subindustry wages and crappy b-scale treatment.

Just curious to see what the percentage is between pilots who would be willing to wait it out, roll the dice and chance the call back, and pilots wanting to just move on to a potentially promising career somewhere else that isnt NWA, Delta, or United.......

Good luck to all on the gov. cheese

 

[furloughed]

I did!

Being near the bottom of the seniority list for the airline I worked for and seeing the number of furloughed from my airline increase every month by 100, I resigned my number and haven't regretted it since. I had way more to gain by resiging and going with one of the aforementined airlines than waiting for a recall that certainly would have taken at least until the end of this decade or the begining of the next one to go back to wages that will be less than I am making now at the airline I am working for. Plus who knows if there will be an airline to go back to. Working at Home depot or going back to school and finding a new career for the next 8-10 years din't thrill me much. I figure by the time I would have been recalled I will have been captain at my new airline for over 6 years.

I do know some people in my situation though that will not resign because they are still holding on to the notion that they will be going back soon to that "major airline" dream job. This type of denial will land someone in a cruddy job for a very long time.

furloughed (not anymore)

 

[NYRANGERS]

It depends on a lot of things......such as what airline you are furloughed from, how old you are...where you want to live...and most importantly..what you want to do.

As things are today, I would not give up my # to go to any of the airlines you mentioned. I would consider UPS or FedEx, however those opportunities have not presented themselves. Every furloughed pilots situation is unique, some would give up their number in an instant to work for JetBlue, others would for a different airline. Many would not give up their number until they had no other options.

NYR

Just the opinion of a furloughed Delta pilot with 30 years left.

 

[banger]

Just for the record:
jetBlue doesn't require you to give up your seniority number from a previous airline.

 

[getfurloaded]

makes sense

You are correct, age and the airline you are furloughed from are big deciding factors.

Although, times are only going to get tougher for the big boys and the airline you will eventually go back to will be a far cry from the one you signed on to in the beginning. That means wages, retirement, benies, and work-rules. Unfortunately scope wont mean crap and pretty soon every major will be flyin regional jets, under a low-fare name and a b-scale. Hopefully ALPA will put a stop to it, but with CH11 looming overhead for so many I doubt it will do much.

Personally I think that is rediculous to pledge such an allegiance to a company that could really give a crap about you anyways. I know several early to mid 30's aged pilots that know it may be several years if at all before they will go back to United or NWA, and they still wouldnt resign their sen. #

Fortunately I never had the glimmer of working for the biggest airline in the world in my eyes. I always looked for moderate sized company, good growth potential, and decent ALPA wages & retirement. Fortunately, there are still several that are prospering in these tough times that actually have something decent to offer.

Good luck to all and hope great opportunities to chose from come your way.

 

[FLB717]

Interesting note to ALPA wages. Of the one shiring ATA,SWA,AAI,JBLU only ATA is ALPA! Wish I had that shiney magazine evert 4 weeks. NOT

 

[SkyWstman]

Sometimes it's just better to start over. Especialy with a growing carrier that is able to adapt to our ever changing environment.

 

[cl65@350]

One must be very careful

i may be going out on a whim here....but I would venture to guess that for most people this is their first experience with a downturn in aviation....history does repeat itself....back in the early 90s this was a similar scenario..minus 9-11 events...the sky was falling and everyone steered away from the majors...

lets face it...for those of us with dreams of becoming airline pilots at the tender age of 6 or below...how many of us dreamed of retiring in a shiny brown and orange 737???? i would venture to guess NOBODY...for me it was a Pan Am 747!! unfortunately, those dreams change as you get older and more wise, but you still hold on to the romance of a 747 or 777 for the rest of your life...yes, i know that financial security of the 737 job has proven so far to be the safest, but what if the FAA would have grounded the 737 during the last few crashes involving rudders...how bout the A320? if you dont think they would do you remember the amr dc10 that crashed in chicago? it was awhile ago but they grounded the dc10 for a very long time...just think if that were a LCC with a single a/c type! lights out?

my point is that aviation in itself is not a stable career...yes even those senior pilots at swa and jetblue have to take medicals every six months right?

to answer the original question...would you resign seniority to go to todays stable carrier???? better be careful...the grass will ALWAYS be greener on the other side...

i dont mean to be negative but it is reality that we are all only one medical from the street! i have been in the industry for 12 years now and 5 of my friends/acquaintances have be weeded. the scary thing is that i have 27 more years of running the gauntlet.

best of luck to all of us and keep up the good work of maintaining a stellar safety record. it is a testament to the professionalism of ALL pilots....regional national major and global!

cheers

 

[getfurloaded]

very well stated

Very well stated cl65.

You just have to look at a snapshot of the industries past and you can see that if investing in a career in aviation was like investing in a stock, you would probably be crazy or stupid for doing so.

I guess we all have to be a little f'd up to do this but we love it, and couldnt imagine doing anything else unfortunately.

Who's to say where the industry is headed. Most project years of the LCC, but people will once again grow weary of sardine cans. But the good or (sad) thing is its probably the best and safest bet. There will always be cheap people looking for cheap seats.

Hopefully this will be a come to Jesus point for all of the mis-managed airlines out there. Keep the costs down in good times and in bad. Dont get over inflated-fat and most likely (barring any a/c catastrophies) when yields go back to a more reasonable rate, the company will survive and grow.

So for now I guess we throw the dice and see..................

 

[furloughed]

Cl65,

While I agree with alot of what you say, I would have to disagree with your anology that this downturn is somewhat similar to that of the early 90s (minus the 9/11 event). I was also around during the early 90s downturn and have 27 years left to retirement. I can honestly say the downturn we are experiencing now is the worst in history. It has been nearly two years from 9/11 and the begining of the furloughs that were a result, and United, American, and NWA are still furloughing. Back in the early 90s most furloughs occured over a short period of time (less than a year) and most airlines were already recalling some of their pilots within two years. Heck, United did not even furlough any pilots during the early 90s downturn. Two years after 9/11 there have been no recalls, and no plans of recalls.

Us Airways has over 1800 on furlough, United has over 1800 (as of 9/30) with 100 a month being furloughed after 9/30 until sometime next spring for a total of somwhere around 2400, American has over 1600 furloughed with a whopping 2000 more to be shown the door, Continental seems the best positioned to begin recalling within the next few years with only 637 furloughed, NWA has 788 with another 305 furloughs at the end of this year, Delta has 1310 on the street. For the Big six nearly 23% of their pilots are on the street. In terms of numbers and percentage of pilots furloughed it has never been worse. And this number doesn't include any furloughs that may occur when or if NWA and Delta and their pilots union's come to a concession agreement that includes changes to work rules, I hope it doesn't happen because someone needs to hold the line. Add this to the fact that there appears to be no great uptick in the economy, the summer was lackluster as far as revenues go, and we are heading into the traditionally slowest time of the year for air travel and it doesn't look as promising as some of us would like it to.

These are the number that some of us that are furloughed from the majors have been looking at while we try to figure out what to do. Doesn't look too great. And for us that are on the bottom half of these seniority lists it looks worse. I am absolutely positive that I will make more career earnings staying the next twenty seven years at my current Airline (knock on wood) than waiting for my recall which I know will take at least another 5-7 years minimum (its already been two years). With the new work rules instituted at my old airline they won't need pilots that are at the bottom of the seniority list for a very long time and to only then make a slow progression to the top of that list making B-scale type wages. I crunched the numbers forwards and backwards, what else do you have to do when your unemployed You are right. I never planned to make my career flying airplanes that were smaller than a 747, but those were dreams of a teenager/pre-teen who knew nothing of this industry and what turmoil that came with it at times. It is all about timing and if your timing ain't right you need to readjust and move on.

I am not trying to be a chicken little here, but these are the facts. I do agree with a previous post that it really depends on your individual situation. I had a couple of people from my new hire class at the major I worked for that were 24 or 25 with no families (wife and kids). They are only 26 or 27 now and will be able to hold out for a longer time, than say someone like me who is 33 with commitments. It all depends, but the grass is definetly greener on the other side of the fence for me and probably many others. Good luck everyone.

 

[Treme]

There are quite a few furloughed major airline pilots at Comair as well. They all elected to resign their seniority with the hopes that Comair -- despite aircraft type -- will be a stable, long-term career with better than average growth potential.

I too dreamed of the PanAm 747. Nowadays I just hope to make it to the left seat before retirement

Headed to listen to Kit Darby in Sept and beg for an RJ job.

 

[RightBettor]

good points

Very good points "Furloughed." Being 32 with family commitments certainly changes one's perspective on these issues. Being at the bottom of the list, I likely will not be recalled to my former "big, global, Rhapshody in Blue carrier" for another 5 - 7 years. Soooo..... resigning my number was not a difficult decision. Folks who lament my decision to do so are welcome to float me a check to cover my monthly expenses so I can feel good about "protecting and defending the profession." I will gladly set up a PayPal account for that purpose!! And while some get wrapped up in "fuselage envy" I think they all pretty much look the same from the front seat forward. Besides, Providence to Phoenix is long enough for me. Okay, go ahead and flame away.

 

[cl65@350]

all VERY good points

can you imagine how easy it would be to chase fllying jobs without the family commitments! anyone thought of flying for emirates? they are hiring i think

 

[RoyalAviation1]

Both my best friends and my dad just recently retired from Emirates. I have to say it was thee best airline being in the family. My dad was always picked up by a driver in a brand new volvo. The house on the beach was rent free. No taxed income. Free electricity, water, etc. Basically no living expenses. Car loan at 0% interest. Full medical and dental coverage. 401K, retirement. The whole package. They even paid the bill for your kids to attend a private school. If you factor all of that in, they made just as much, if not more than the US pilots do here in the states.

My best friend now flies for ACA(furloughed) and I"m trying to get in somewhere. We're both considering applying to Emirates the minute we hit 2500TT and 1000 Turbine. The 1000 turbine doesn't have to be PIC. It just has to be in a multi crew environment.
BTW, did I mention Dubai(city where Emirates is based) is one of the most metropolitan cities in that region. Its more westernized than the west. Skyrises everywhere, state of the art EVERYTHING. Your not exactly living in a third world country there. In fact its usually one of the places thats on the discovery channell for most expensive/lavish places to visit.

They are hiring FO's and placing them in the A330's, and B777's.

If my girlfriend told me that she would go tommorrow I'd already be waiting at the airport for her with the bags.

 

[GCD]

I believe most companies shred the resignation letter because they know what the reality is. I've been told this "unofficially," of course.