Required Pilot-to-Controller Responses

['72Gremlin]

A captain recently b!tch slapped me (ok, he really didn't slap me) for reading back the altitude that we were vacating, i.e. "departing FL 260 for FL 200," when given an altitude change.

When replying to an altitude change clearance, I was under the impression pilots were required to include the altitude you are vacating in the readback.

For the life of me, I've searched the AIM and FARs, and haven't found any reference to this. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks in advance.

 

[Bus Driver]

AIM:
5-3-3
a.1

 

[midlifeflyer]

maybe he slapped you for saying "for" ?

 

[Flying Illini]

Well go bit#h slap him back b/c he doesn't know what he's talking about:

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0503.html#5-3-3

5-3-3. Additional Reports​

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:​

1. At all times.​

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.​

 

[districtpilot]

The only time I include an altitude that I am climbing or descending through is on initial call up to a new facility. If you are in radar contact and are given a different altitude, they know what altitude you began at. As far as the AIM rule, I read it as a report needs to be made when vacating an altitude, but it doesn't state you have to say the altitude you are vacating through.

 

[paulsalem]

This is from Don Brown's column "SAY AGAIN" on avweb
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182638-1.html
His columns are full of intesting info on this and many other atc subjects.
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While I have you held captive in the holding pattern, let me give you another sermon on the rules. You know that silly rule that says you're supposed to state your altitude leaving when you're assigned a new altitude? You knew it was in there for a reason, didn't you?

AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports



​

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight
level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.



​

Now we plug in the controller side of the equation from the FAA 7110.65

5-5-5. VERTICAL APPLICATION



​

b. Assign an altitude to an aircraft after the aircraft previously at that altitude has been issued a climb/descent clearance and is observed (valid Mode C), or reports leaving the altitude.



​

There you are in a holding pattern at 12,000 with a dozen other airplanes stacked above you and Approach starts running them again.

ZTL: "Airliner 123 cleared over the SHINE intersection to CLT via the SHINE5 arrival descend and maintain one one thousand.
AIR123: Airliner 123 cleared to CLT down to one one thousand.
ZTL: (sigh). Airliner 123 say altitude leaving.
AIR123: Uh, we're out of twelve.
ZTL: Airliner 234 descend and maintain one two thousand.
AIR234: We're descending to one two thousand Airliner234
ZTL: (big sigh) Airliner 234 say altitude leaving.
AIR234: Airliner 234 is leaving one three thousand for one two thousand.
ZTL: Roger, Airliner345 descend and maintain one three thousand.



​

Have you ever seen a radar scope with a full holding pattern? All those targets dragging those big data blocks over the same spot? Ever tried to observe someone's Mode C when it's like that? We're lucky if we can find your data block, much less observe your Mode C. Getting the picture?

 

[A Squared]

That's not the only time that DOn Brown has mentioned that, either. He's worked that into his columns a couple of times. I doubt the'd be emphasizing it if it didn't matter.

Yes, you are suposed to report the the altitude leaving.

Yes, it is important, for reasons which may not be obvious to us.

Yes, your captain is wrong.

 

['72Gremlin]

Thanks for taking the time and finding this for me. I know a lot of pilots omit the altitude you're vacating when assigned another altitude and I started to doubt myself. Once again, thanks for the lesson and for your time to reply.

 

[Peanut gallery]

Very few people call vacating when just recieving a clearance

Right or wrong it is just what you hear out there. I never call vacating when given a simple altitude change when heading across the planet. I always give a vacating call when in a holding pattern due to scope clutter on the controllers side of the equation. Just what I hear out there.

 

['72Gremlin]

Right or wrong it is just what you hear out there. I never call vacating when given a simple altitude change when heading across the planet. I always give a vacating call when in a holding pattern due to scope clutter on the controllers side of the equation. Just what I hear out there.

I've noticed that, too. I think there needs to be a certain level of appropriateness. If the radios are cluttered, it may be appropriate to keep the radio calls succint; however, if there's relatively light traffic on the radio waves, I'll comply with what the AIM says. It's just good form.

Thanks for you input.

 

[minitour]

I always report leaving an altitude if I'm there...what I have a hard time understanding is the climb/descent calls.

On departure, I'll be switched over to uh...departure.

"Podunk Departure, Bugsmasher 123 climbing 1,300 to maintain 3,000 heading 240."

"Bugsmasher 123, Podunk Departure radar contact climb and maintain 6,000"

"Maintain 6000, Smasher 123"

Is this correct or should I say "leaving 1,500 (now that i've come up a few hundy) to maintain 6,000"?

Same thing in the descent.

"Smasher 123, descend and maintiain 14,000"

"Leaving FL 210 to maintain 14,000...smasher 123"

*somewhere around 15,500*
"Smasher 123 descend and maintain 8,000 contact Podunk Approach 111.11"

"Descend and maintain 8,000 and Podunk on 111.11, smasher 123"

Again...do I report that I'm descending through 15,500 to Center or only when I check on with Podunk?

"Podunk Approach, Bugsmasher 123 15,500 descending 8,000"

Well now that I've confused myself, I think I'll go....

-mini

 

[A Squared]

Mini,

You're confusing two different (but similar) reports.

On *initial* contact with a facility, you should report your current altitude, along with altitude climbing to or descending to. AIM 3-3-1 b 2 (a) This allows the controller to check your reported altitude against your mode C readout for discrepancies (problems with his equipment, you're on a bad altimiter setting, etc) You'd only do that whem contacting a new facitilty.

The subject of this thread is 3-3-3 a 1, which requires reporting when leaving an *assigned* altituude, not reporting the altitude you're through on each and every transmission.

 

[minitour]

Mini,

You're confusing two different (but similar) reports.

On *initial* contact with a facility, you should report your current altitude, along with altitude climbing to or descending to. AIM 3-3-1 b 2 (a) This allows the controller to check your reported altitude against your mode C readout for discrepancies (problems with his equipment, you're on a bad altimiter setting, etc) You'd only do that whem contacting a new facitilty.

The subject of this thread is 3-3-3 a 1, which requires reporting when leaving an *assigned* altituude, not reporting the altitude you're through on each and every transmission.

I understand the two different reports...what I'm confused with is the report in 3-3-3-a-1.

If I'm *assigned* 3,000 on departure...and when switched to departure (through about 1800') told to maintain 6,000...do I now report leaving 3,000 climbing 6,000? Common sense tells me no since I'm still down at 1800'.

Likewise...on approach. Leaving FL190 descending 13,000....around 15,000 the airspace is clear below me and Approach gives me "Descend and maintain 4,000"... I was *assigned* 13,000...now I'm *assigned* 4,000...but I never got to 13,000...so it would seem stupid to report leaving that altitude as I was never there. Now, if I was handed to another controller with the descent to 4,000 I understand my initial contact with the new guy would be:
"Approach, N123 13,800 descending 4,000"

...but what if I don't get the handoff? Do I report "leaving 13,800 to maintain 4,000"? Seems silly... Typically when given a new altitude when I haven't reached my previously assigned I just read back "climb and maintain XXX, N123"...but since something was assigned...should I be reporting leaving that altitude?

Maybe I missed a "when to report" in the AIM that clears this up?

-mini

 

[A Squared]

I understand the two different reports...what I'm confused with is the report in 3-3-3-a-1.

If I'm *assigned* 3,000 on departure...and when switched to departure (through about 1800') told to maintain 6,000...do I now report leaving 3,000 climbing 6,000? Common sense tells me no since I'm still down at 1800'.

Likewise...on approach. Leaving FL190 descending 13,000....around 15,000 the airspace is clear below me and Approach gives me "Descend and maintain 4,000"... I was *assigned* 13,000...now I'm *assigned* 4,000...but I never got to 13,000...so it would seem stupid to report leaving that altitude as I was never there. Now, if I was handed to another controller with the descent to 4,000 I understand my initial contact with the new guy would be:
"Approach, N123 13,800 descending 4,000"

...but what if I don't get the handoff? Do I report "leaving 13,800 to maintain 4,000"? Seems silly... Typically when given a new altitude when I haven't reached my previously assigned I just read back "climb and maintain XXX, N123"...but since something was assigned...should I be reporting leaving that altitude?

Maybe I missed a "when to report" in the AIM that clears this up?

-mini

my understnading (flawed as that may be) is that if you are *maintaining* that assigned altitude, then you report leaving it. Otherwise you wouldn't report descending or climbing through it. The purpose of the 3-3-3 a 1 call is to let the controller know that you are in fact starting your descent (without him having to watch your data block) so that he may now assign that altitude to another plane. If you've contacted departure through 13,400 descending to 9000 and he clears you to 7000, he already knows that you're descending, and he's not going to assign 9000 to a plane higher then you.

 

[minitour]

my understnading (flawed as that may be) is that if you are *maintaining* that assigned altitude, then you report leaving it. Otherwise you wouldn't report descending or climbing through it. The purpose of the 3-3-3 a 1 call is to let the controller know that you are in fact starting your descent (without him having to watch your data block) so that he may now assign that altitude to another plane. If you've contacted departure through 13,400 descending to 9000 and he clears you to 7000, he already knows that you're descending, and he's not going to assign 9000 to a plane higher then you.

Royer.

So...I'm in good shape. Bueno.

Thanks for the clarification.

-mini

 

[Draginass]

That captain sounds like one of those guys that feels the need to lord it over people. The problem with that is those people are almost always idiots.

 

[pilothouston123]

I must say something about this.... this is all about communcation and are you being loud and clear with your message. Does Center get what they need out of your reply's and are the responces consie and to the point. Langague is art and open to inturputation.

If a captian is repimanding you for the way you talk on the raidio... He is probably being petty and should be told to lighten up.

I had a guy like that... should have told him to lay off my ass the first chance i got

 

[MauleSkinner]

My question is, if it's so darn important, why'd they take it out of the regs?

 

[A Squared]

My question is, if it's so darn important, why'd they take it out of the regs?

Why'd they take *what* out of the regs?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Why'd they take *what* out of the regs?

Ah...disregard...consider it an example of the "negative" principle of primacy in learning. Learned it wrong first, and can't unlearn it fast enoug. Sorry.

David