Required Pilot-to-Controller Responses

['72Gremlin]

A captain recently b!tch slapped me (ok, he really didn't slap me) for reading back the altitude that we were vacating, i.e. "departing FL 260 for FL 200," when given an altitude change.

When replying to an altitude change clearance, I was under the impression pilots were required to include the altitude you are vacating in the readback.

For the life of me, I've searched the AIM and FARs, and haven't found any reference to this. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks in advance.

 

[Bus Driver]

AIM:
5-3-3
a.1

 

[midlifeflyer]

maybe he slapped you for saying "for" ?

 

[Flying Illini]

Well go bit#h slap him back b/c he doesn't know what he's talking about:

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0503.html#5-3-3

5-3-3. Additional Reports​

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:​

1. At all times.​

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.​

 

[districtpilot]

The only time I include an altitude that I am climbing or descending through is on initial call up to a new facility. If you are in radar contact and are given a different altitude, they know what altitude you began at. As far as the AIM rule, I read it as a report needs to be made when vacating an altitude, but it doesn't state you have to say the altitude you are vacating through.

 

[paulsalem]

This is from Don Brown's column "SAY AGAIN" on avweb
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182638-1.html
His columns are full of intesting info on this and many other atc subjects.
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While I have you held captive in the holding pattern, let me give you another sermon on the rules. You know that silly rule that says you're supposed to state your altitude leaving when you're assigned a new altitude? You knew it was in there for a reason, didn't you?

AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports



​

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight
level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.



​

Now we plug in the controller side of the equation from the FAA 7110.65

5-5-5. VERTICAL APPLICATION



​

b. Assign an altitude to an aircraft after the aircraft previously at that altitude has been issued a climb/descent clearance and is observed (valid Mode C), or reports leaving the altitude.



​

There you are in a holding pattern at 12,000 with a dozen other airplanes stacked above you and Approach starts running them again.

ZTL: "Airliner 123 cleared over the SHINE intersection to CLT via the SHINE5 arrival descend and maintain one one thousand.
AIR123: Airliner 123 cleared to CLT down to one one thousand.
ZTL: (sigh). Airliner 123 say altitude leaving.
AIR123: Uh, we're out of twelve.
ZTL: Airliner 234 descend and maintain one two thousand.
AIR234: We're descending to one two thousand Airliner234
ZTL: (big sigh) Airliner 234 say altitude leaving.
AIR234: Airliner 234 is leaving one three thousand for one two thousand.
ZTL: Roger, Airliner345 descend and maintain one three thousand.



​

Have you ever seen a radar scope with a full holding pattern? All those targets dragging those big data blocks over the same spot? Ever tried to observe someone's Mode C when it's like that? We're lucky if we can find your data block, much less observe your Mode C. Getting the picture?

 

[A Squared]

That's not the only time that DOn Brown has mentioned that, either. He's worked that into his columns a couple of times. I doubt the'd be emphasizing it if it didn't matter.

Yes, you are suposed to report the the altitude leaving.

Yes, it is important, for reasons which may not be obvious to us.

Yes, your captain is wrong.

 

['72Gremlin]

Thanks for taking the time and finding this for me. I know a lot of pilots omit the altitude you're vacating when assigned another altitude and I started to doubt myself. Once again, thanks for the lesson and for your time to reply.

 

[Peanut gallery]

Very few people call vacating when just recieving a clearance

Right or wrong it is just what you hear out there. I never call vacating when given a simple altitude change when heading across the planet. I always give a vacating call when in a holding pattern due to scope clutter on the controllers side of the equation. Just what I hear out there.

 

['72Gremlin]

Right or wrong it is just what you hear out there. I never call vacating when given a simple altitude change when heading across the planet. I always give a vacating call when in a holding pattern due to scope clutter on the controllers side of the equation. Just what I hear out there.

I've noticed that, too. I think there needs to be a certain level of appropriateness. If the radios are cluttered, it may be appropriate to keep the radio calls succint; however, if there's relatively light traffic on the radio waves, I'll comply with what the AIM says. It's just good form.

Thanks for you input.