Reporting speed reductions to ATC

[Saabslime]

Just wanted to get some opinions on something that happened on a flight I was operating into JFK the other night.

We were descending through about 8,000 feet being radar vectored for a VOR approach doing 250 knots. We had not received any speed assignment from approach and when he turned us for the base leg I started slowing to 210 knots so I could start configuring. At this point we were only about 5 miles from the IAF. Approach questioned us about our airspeed after a couple of minutes and when we said 210 I thought he was going to blow a gasket. He said it was an FAR that we had to report any speed reductions greater than 20 knots. At this point, we're on the initial portion of the approach and I told him we were just flying our profile and that I wasn't aware of that particular regulation. In my mind, if he needed a specific speed for separation, then it's his job as a controller to assign it.

Anyway, I don't have a current copy of the regs and was wondering if anybody could shed some light on whether this guy was just blowing smoke or what.

 

[erj-145mech]

Thought that if the controller needed separation, he would issue a restriction, other than that, its pilot discretion and FAR's below 10k, traffic pattern, etc.

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

There are two sections in the AIM regarding airspeed... non-regulatory, but regulatory in nature, of course.

Section 4-4-11 deals mostly with controller issued speed limitations. The only thing of interest here is the controller will not issue a speed less than 210 kts below 10,000 unless w/in 20 miles of the airport, 170 for turbine, 150 for recip.

Section 5-5-9 notes that the pilot is responsible to advise ATC any time cruising airspeed varies plus or minus 5% or 10 kts, whichever is greater. I'm not sure where he got the 20 kts from... maybe he added the +/- 10 kts together? I think since you were setting up for an approach, you arguably were not at "cruising" speed, but reducing to "approach" speed and, therefore, are not in the wrong. It would probably still be courteous to mention the speed reduction. I'm sure it wasn't your first time into JFK -- and, I'm sure you know how finicky those controllers are. They have a lot of traffic that they have to provide with adequate separation. I would bet the controller has never attempted to intercept a LOC at 250 kts... not that doing a steep turn can't be fun every once in a while.

As far as the FAR's go, there is no mention of reporting airspeed changes in the IFR section of part 91 that I could find, nor could I find a mention in part 121.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Thought that if the controller needed separation, he would issue a restriction, other than that, its pilot discretion and FAR's below 10k, traffic pattern, etc.

I believe if your filed enroute TAS changes greater than 10%, it must be reported to ATC. I've never heard of this 20Knot change requirement. Do keep in mind though that when you go to a high density Class B primary airport, maintaining as close to 250 as possible to the marker is always prudent unless directed otherwise, especially when you are lined up and there are 30 aircraft behind you waiting to do the same. Common sense also comes into play; if it's 3am, then the speed is not such of a big deal, but if you are in the middle of a morning or evening push, then I would try to fly as fast as possible until told otherwise.

 

[Saabslime]

Thanks all for the responses. Maintaining 250 to the marker in an airbus just isn't an option unless you want to end up on CNN. He was probably just having a bad night.

 

[Sim Sweat]

"Maintaining 250 to the marker in an airbus just isn't an option unless you want to end up on CNN."
Just what I was thinking, and well said.
Gosh Mr. Controller ... we can maintain 250 knots, but we're gonna make an awful mess.

 

[FL420]

In my experience, 170 to the marker is expected at most Class B airports. Most folks seem to slow down just in time to be in landing config. @ 170 at the marker or 5nm from the threshold.

 

[HawkerF/O]

My apoligies. That should have read 210 instead of 250. Just a typo I didn't catch.

 

[igneousy2]

In my experience, 170 to the marker is expected at most Class B airports. Most folks seem to slow down just in time to be in landing config. @ 170 at the marker or 5nm from the threshold.

What Class B are you talking about? 180 is slow, 210 is typical, 250 is appreciated if your aircraft can do it.

Later

 

[FL420]

What Class B are you talking about? 180 is slow, 210 is typical, 250 is appreciated if your aircraft can do it.

Later

I am talking about shooting an instrument approach or a visual approach backed up by an IAP to land at the primary airport in Class B airspace. I am not talking about transiting Class B airspace to land somewhere else.

The FAF is typically 5nm from touchdown with an altitude of approximately 1500 feet AFE. Typical airline SOP's require a stable approach on speed and on an electronic or visual glidepath(if available) with a stabilized approach power setting in the landing configuration below 1000 feet AFE in IMC and 500 feet AFE in VMC.

If you pass the FAF at 170 knots and 1500 feet AFE in the landing configuration it is usually no sweat getting a jet slowed to a Vref in the neighborhood of 110-130KIAS by 1000 feet AFE. Too fast, too high, a tailwind, not configured or subpar situational awareness passing the FAF can make it tough to make a stabilized approach IAW SOP's.