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Repeal of Age 60 rule

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I would love to retire at 60 if I had Social Security and a pension. ALPA and Congress have deprived me of both. I want to live out my remaining days at the Ronald Reagan Home for the Aged.I could be drooling and voiding into my Depends while the younger pilots pay for my retirement. I don't ask for much. "Mommy, Tell me about the time I used to be President".
 
Eagleflip

""It isn't fair to change the rules of the game once it has started." Hogwash. Does this logic imply that racial discrimination should not have been stopped because "that's how it has always been?" Rules change all of the time according to legal and societal evolution; this law is no different. Discrimination is shameful and ultimately unfair to those participating in the system; to alter an injustice is appropriate, not counter to some misapplied sport metaphor."


Ok Eagleflip, but you still haven't answered the problem that these guy's, (since no one has refuted my claim I guess), have all benefitted from their age when they were hired by being placed ahead in seniority of someone younger. I haven't ever heard anybody bitching about being the most senior guy in a new hire class of 30. How about this as a possible "middle ground" proposition. When you turn 60, if you want to keep flying at the airline, you retain your seat position and longevity, but you go to the back of the seniority list?


Ought to be interesting to see how many guys on the high end of this debate won't think this is good enough.

"to alter an injustice is appropriate, not counter to some misapplied sport metaphor"

I guess misapplied is in the eye of the applier.
 
AV8OR--
I'd say that the relative seniority issue you brought up (gaining seniority within a training class based on age alone) is a minor issue. Given the broader argument of continued employment past age 60, it seems to be a minor irritant.

JetBlue did indeed rank us seniority by age within our training class. I know of other airlines that do the same, but know of at least one (Delta maybe?) that ranks you within the class via the last couple of numbers in your SSN. Random it is.

I don't quite understand your proposal, though. Are you saying that Joe Pilot, once reaching 60, should go to the bottom of the overall seniority list?

If so, what is the point? If we are trying to change this rule based on age discrimination, what does changing your seniority at age 60 provide? A chance for the guys below you to move up just to remain "fair?"
 
I agree. It is age discrimination. I also suggest repealing the age 16 driving limit, the age 21 drinking limit, and the 23 ATP limit. The fact is, all of these ages are somewhat arbitrary. I feel strongly that I had the maturity necessary for an ATP before 23 (I still don't have the maturity to drink!). However, these ages have been selected for a simple reason: the majority of people under these ages would be unsafe exercising these priveleges. As would the majority of people flying over the age of 60. Could some? Most certainly. But once humans hit a certain age, their physical and mental performance degrades. Increasing the age limit reduces safety, and it should not be done.

Ironically, many who find 60 "discrimination" have no problem with an equally random age like 65. Perhaps their complaint is less with the discrimination than it is with their own finances.

More ironically, many decry the law because so few pilots have good pensions, yet ridicule me when I suggest that the lack of pensions is a contributing factor in the degradation of our careers. Perhaps if some of them (one mustard colored airline comes to mind) would fight as hard for a better pension as they do against this rule, far fewer of us would have to work into our golden years.
 
Truth of the matter...Pre 1984 the majors would not hire anyone over 31yrs. There are many of us who had the interview...the job...or were very close when the arabs played the embargo game. No hiring till '77 but we were too old then. 1984 and several lawsuits later and the majors are hiring the over the hill 31 year old folks. The world was looking great, but then came Lorenzo, Lockerbie, the first gulf war, and all of a sudden we were back where we started.. But there were second and third and fourth chances for some of us. We are here flying for good companies, making a good living for the first time but we have to quit at age 60. I'm one of these guys and I'm hoping for the repeal of this stupid rule. I will do everything I can to continue to support my family. with or without the rule change. It would be a whole lot easier if they would just hurry up and change the rule
 
Perhaps if some of them (one mustard colored airline comes to mind) would fight as hard for a better pension as they do against this rule, far fewer of us would have to work into our golden years.
FDJ, I agree with your post except for this snippet. I think pilots do fight for their wages and benefits, but also realize they are limited by several factors. The largest to me in this scenario is time in business, and how long you've been negotiating for a proper wage. Comparing Delta wages and bennies to AirTran is ludicrous due to this. Unfortunately, most airlines don't follow Jet Blue's philosphy of paying a proper wage for services rendered. They would instead make you fight for every penny. We just signed our 2nd contract, and it had HUGE improvements in $$ and even improvement on retirements. Are we satisfied? No. We will strive to improve our collective lot each time around. Delta has been at it for many more years, with a greater amount time in negotiations, and therefore sets a standard for us to reach.
Also, who is the mustard colored airline? AirTran is light cream and teal, Southwest has some orange, but no one I can think of has Mustard...
I also don't belive it's any one airline fighting for this repeal, and actually most airline's pilot groups are split on this issue.
 
No Carma left!

Flying Freddie wrote:

''I want to live out my remaining days at the Ronald Reagan Home for the Aged.I could be drooling and voiding into my Depends while the younger pilots pay for my retirement. I don't ask for much. "Mommy, Tell me about the time I used to be President".

Oh my god! You have no carma. If you think this is funny, you should loose you ticket for lack of human empathy alone. It is scary to think that people think this is actually cute. Someday you'll grow up to find yourself in less than perfect health.


As for age 60 rule, there is a vein of safety that is left out. Just as noone wants to inform grandaddy that he may be up to the standards of operating a motor vehicle ( just freeway drive in FL to see), over 60 pilots will place even a higher burden on aeromedical docs to level with pilots that they have known for decades. And just as in Florida, old people think old people drive just fine.


:eek:
 
over 60 pilots will place even a higher burden on aeromedical docs to level with pilots that they have known for decades.

OK, so you are saying that once over 60--an age selected almost 50 years ago--one is automatically unsafe? Come on--do you really believe that? If so, why are pilots allowed to fly under

FDJ is correct--any age established as a cutoff is age discrimination. If we want to totally abolish the age restriction, mandatory psycomotor testing will inevitably follow. This intrusive examination may well be the only way to weed out those not capable of continuing in this career.

Were one willing to accept some sort of age discrimination in this case, perhaps an alternate argument should be that the current age established oh so long ago is simply not valid. Heck, Social Security eligibility ages have increased substantially. Medicaid eligibility has increased as well. Both changes are due to the lifespan increases we've been priviliged to enjoy in the past thirty years.

One of our other posters asked how eliminating the age 60 rule would benefit those currently furloughed. In short, it won't to any large degree. Every major in the market experiences attrition each month. How many recalls have you heard about to counter this attrition? Attrition is not the key to wholesale recall and hiring; economic development and subsequent expansion is. Please keep in mind I'm not gloating over anybody--you folks on furlough have my deepest respect.

Sorry FDJ, but I reject the connection between fighting for a pension and the Age 60 rule. Remember, I advocate that most pilots, given the opportunity to retire, will still choose to do so. Those ill-prepared financially to retire at 60 have made their own bed, pension or not.
 
I said it before on another age 60 thread....here it is again:


Another question for those taking the age discrimination "moral highroad."

What about the age 23 for the ATP? That is clearly age discrimination. Is a 21 or 22 year old any less safe or competent to act as an ATP? No. Has it ever been proven that 23 is the ideal and safe age for an ATP? No.

So why is nobody fighting this issue? Because, for the majority, it doesn't really affect them. They don't care. It isn't affecting them job-wise or financially. Which brings me to my next point......

For BOTH sides of this controversy, for the most part, this is all about personnal gain (or loss as the case may be).

For those who already have their position, they want to keep it longer so they can make more money, make more on their 401k, stay in the left seat longer, etc. etc. etc. (it is ironic, however, that they have all, at one point, benefitted from the age 60 rule).

Then there are those who are furloughed and waiting for their spot back, or in a pool, or just waiting for an airline job period. Their reasons are the same. Personnal gain. They want to get back, or in as the case may be, as quick as possible.

You can package your arguement with a pretty "morality" arguement as much as you want, but people need to see this issue for what it really is: one of personnal gain, personnal growth, personnal opinion.

Whoever "wins" this arguement does so at the expense of another.....there is no real winner here.

I will say, however, that the age issue does need to be addressed at some point. I do agree that health is a factor. As far as the "as long as you can pass a medical" arguement goes, give me a break.......we all know about the "quality" of some of the medical exams out there.

Good luck to everybody, as I've said before, we all need it.
 
The issue is this:

They have enjoyed advancement due to this rule for years. It is an accepted and understood part of the profession. I am not willing to be one of those whose carrers are slowed so that they current group of almost-retired pilots can get a windfall. Sorry guys - you had your turn. Share the wealth.

I see it this way:

The senior pilots got there via older pilots being forced to retire. Now they want to STAY there at the expense of the junior pilots.
Pretty sweet deal, if they are able to pull it off. Seems greedy to me.

The ONLY WAY to make this fair would be to slowly phase in the changes in one-year increments.

Age 61 for the next 2 years.
Age 62 for the next 2 years.
Then Age 63.

This, although still unfair in my view, would at least not cause sudden and drastic changes to the carrer expectations of junior pilots WHO DESERVE THE SAME ADVANCEMENT THAT THE SENIOR PILOTS GOT!!!

Sorry for shouting.
 
Citrus,

I was referring to LUV.

I appreciate that you are fighting for what you deserve. While I disagree that B6 is an example of an airline that pays a "proper wage," I agree that many airlines have not been negotiating long enough to secure some of the things many of us feel they deserve.

My point was directed at the multitude on this board who criticize me for pointing out that lesser contracts are negatively affecting this industry. I believe that some of the reasons (financial) given for overturning the age 60 rule are perfect examples of this.

I wish EVERY pilot group luck in any upcoming contract negotiations. It may keep us from having to fly until we are 90.
 
Ummmm....100LL...again,

First, I hadn't even read your post when i posted mine.

Second, I don't think you understood my post......I'm making the same argument you did after me: the "age 60 rule is morally wrong and is age discrimination" stance is a little b.s. in my opinion.

Also, here is a part of my post again:

". (it is ironic, however, that they have all, at one point, benefitted from the age 60 rule)."

Again, kinda what you just said.....


I'm in your boat...all these people who are now arguing against the rule, have at some point in their careers, benefitted from the very same rule (providing, of course, they are currently at a 121 carrier).
 
You know, you guys are right. There must be an age discrimination involved in this business. After all, why not give that ATP to a 15 year old? Why not allow a 12 year old to fly jumpers, or God forbid, oust Avbug out of his fire fighting job?

Ludicrous? Of course. We make fine line determinations every day.

One can own a handgun, but not a live bazooka. One can speak freely without fear of retribution, but don't threaten the President. To me, these rules make sense.

The Age 60 rule doesn't make sense. Either a pilot is qualified to fly or he/she is not. 60 and one day makes you inelligible to fly 121, yet you can fly the same type jet on charter all you want. This doesn't pass the common sense test.

As for "personal gain," yes, I'll buy into that argument. But you have to take it further. It is not entirely an issue of money, but of the right to work in a given profession.

Finally, I'll retire from this thread (I think) with this thought: I was against the Age 60 rule from the outset of my career, even though I knew it would work against me at the beginning.

Fighting this rule isn't about depriving those "below me" in hiring and seniority of a job--it is about enforcing an unjustifiable act of health and ability discrimination.

My best to all on the board--sincerely. I hope we all find ourselves working in the cockpit of our choice within the next year.
 
-----------------------------------------------------
OK, I admit that given this scenario my total time in the cockpit is three years greater than my new hire buddy. Again, an injustice is being corrected and the new hire's life in the industry is delayed three years--but he is no worse off other than the time value of his deferred earnings during that initial three year hire period. He gains from the theoritical increase in pay at the end of his career, however.
------------------------------------------------------

This, to me, is a nice politically correct way of saying 'screw the junior guys.'

This can represent a lot of earning potential for new guy, shortening and delaying the careers of others.


Your refence to racial discrimination is invalid.

ALL airline pilots are subject to the age 60 rule. You can not compare a rule that all pilots will eventually be subject to racial discrimination. Period.

Not all people are of a certain race. All WILL age. Therefore the argument is invalid. I will accept the retirement age when it comes. You know why? Because I want the guys behind me to have the same shot. Honor is dead, hm?
 
John Doe-

It was not a flame, sorry if it sounded like one.

I did not say your argument was wrong.

I was taking issue only with the 'moral equivalency' issue, which I believe is invalid in this case.
 
Again, a slow change in the age limit may mitigate the effects of a rule change, and would spread the benefits AND penalties of the change more evenly than a sudden change.

I will be in full support of retired pilots getting their old jobs back, even though it will hurt me a little more, because FAIR is FAIR.
 
Must....stop....arguing....

move...away....from....the....keyboard.....

OK--what's your opinion? Does anybody on this thread think the rule has a chance in hades of being changed in the first place?
 
"I don't quite understand your proposal, though. Are you saying that Joe Pilot, once reaching 60, should go to the bottom of the overall seniority list?

If so, what is the point? If we are trying to change this rule based on age discrimination, what does changing your seniority at age 60 provide? A chance for the guys below you to move up just to remain "fair?""

In a word yes that is exactly what it would do. Look, if if this is about the "morality" of repealing an "unfair" rule. It just doesn't hold water. At my airline we have guys retiring to the SO seat, but guess who's fighting for the age sixty repeal? The guys in the seat now. So let's say it gets bumped to 63, 65, 70, whatever. Well I'm betting that when a pilots career doesn't work just as planned and he gets to whatever the next limit is he's gonna cry unfair, I ought to get to stay, even though the reason he's in that seat is cause guys infront of him had to retire.

Every time a guy retires back to the SO seat and there's no upgrade class from SO to FO, all of the guys on that equipment's SO list go backward in seniority, is it fair, heck I don't know, but that's the way it is. I think it would be interesting to see if all the pro-60+ crowd would be happy if all the former retirees were allowed to return to their seat and seniority till they can't pass a medical and therefore bumped a 60+ constituant out of their newly found seniority position because of a repeal of the rule.

This things gonna rear it's ugly head every few years I guess. Oh well, hey if you can get em to repeal it , more power to you.
 
Eagleflip:

"Either a pilot is qualified to fly or he/she is not. "

Exactly! So why is a 22 year-old not qualified to get an ATP? Where's the study on that one?? It doesn't "pass the test" either. Why are these "age 60 is discrimination" people not going after this rule??

Again, 'cause most people don't care. It doesn't affact them. Which brings me back to one of my points: it's all about what a person does or doesn't get out of this.
 
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Re: ?????????

dlredline said:
Canyonblue said:
As far as retirement goes the UsAir guys would have a chance to at least double their pension, but that probably doesn’t affect YOU.


Ok guys, I'll bite. How do you figure THAT?

Sincerely,
DL (U furloughee after 15 years)


What benefits does PBGC guarantee?

PBGC guarantees monthly pension benefits beginning at normal retirement age, certain early retirement benefits, and certain beneficiary benefits. Federal pension law limits the type and amount of benefits that PBGC guarantees. For example, PBGC guarantees benefits only up to a maximum limit, the guarantee of any benefit improvement amendment made within five years before the termination date is limited, and temporary supplements are generally not guaranteed.

Under ERISA, pension plan assets in a terminated plan are first used to pay benefits for workers who are retired or near retirement, without regard to PBGC benefit limitations. This provision means that many US Airways pilots will receive a benefit higher than the PBGC maximum guarantee for their age. US Airways' estimates show that pilots who retired or who could have retired before April 1, 2000 will receive about 85% of their April 1, 2000 benefit, and the company has adjusted April pension payments for those individuals to that level. Pilots will be informed of their PBGC benefit amount after PBGC completes its initial benefit calculations, expected within a few months after March 31, 2003.

The guaranteed monthly maximum amounts below apply to pilots who were not eligible to retire before April 1, 2000. This age adjustment schedule shows guarantee limits for a person who receives an annuity payable for life (straight-life annuity) and a person who receives a joint-and-50%-survivor annuity, which pays benefits to the surviving spouse.

PBGC MAXIMUM MONTHLY GUARANTEES
FOR PLANS TERMINATING IN 2003




Age Straight-Life Annuity Joint and 50% Survivor Annuity
65 $3,664.77 $3,298.29
64 $3,408.24 $3,067.42
63 $3,151.70 $2,836.53
62 $2,895.17 $2,605.65
61 $2,638.63 $2,374.77
60 $2,382.10 $2,143.89
59 $2,235.51 $2,011.96
58 $2,088.92 $1,880.03
57 $1,942.33 $1,748.10
56 $1,795.74 $1,616.17
55 $1,649.15 $1,484.24
54 $1,575.85 $1,418.27
53 $1,502.56 $1,352.30
52 $1,429.26 $1,286.33
51 $1,355.96 $1,220.36
50 $1,282.67 $1,154.40
49 $1,209.37 $1,088.43
48 $1,136.08 $1,022.47
47 $1,062.78 $956.50
46 $ 989.49 $890.54
45 $ 916.19 $824.57
44 $ 879.54 $791.59
43 $ 842.90 $758.61
42 $ 806.25 $725.63
41 $ 769.60 $692.64
40 $ 732.95 $659.66
 
CALL YOUR REPS! IF FLYING BEYOND AGE 60 PASEES THEN THE FURLOUGHED PILOTS ARE SCREWED...
 
john doe states:

Second, I don't think you understood my post......I'm making the same argument you did after me: the "age 60 rule is morally wrong and is age discrimination" stance is a little b.s. in my opinion.


if thats your opinion, explain to me why at age 61 i can be a corporate captain on a GV (part 91) flying throughout the world and a part 121 captain cannot???????

:confused: :confused:
 
jbucpt:

Nowhere in my posts have I said it is logical, or not logical, that someone at 61 can fly 91 but can't 121......

I am commenting on those people that scream that the current rule is age discrimination in their "battle cry" to get rid of it, because when you get right down to it, its all about what an individual stands to gain or loose. Especially when you consider that alot of the people against it, in the 121 realm, at one time benefitted from the very same rule due to the "forced" retirement of countless people senior to them who may have elected to stay.

Read my first post in this thread again.

From one of your posts:

"WE all knew going into this profession that getting furloughed was and is a possibility. MAKING people retire so others can have a chance is a poor excuse for supporting the age 60 rule."

That logic works both ways......Anybody starting a 121 job after the rule went into effect KNEW that they were going to have to retire at age 60. In the support for or against this rule, where's the difference between someone who knew furlough was a possibility and wants their job back (and is counting on retirements to expedite the process) , and someone who KNEW mandatory retirement at 60 was the rule and now wants to change it so they can stay at the expense of someone trying to get recalled off of furlough? There is none, both have their own interests in mind.
 
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jbucpt said:
john doe states:

Second, I don't think you understood my post......I'm making the same argument you did after me: the "age 60 rule is morally wrong and is age discrimination" stance is a little b.s. in my opinion.


if thats your opinion, explain to me why at age 61 i can be a corporate captain on a GV (part 91) flying throughout the world and a part 121 captain cannot???????

:confused: :confused:

I believe you are correct. Which is why, in the interest of safety, I believe that no one over 60 should be able to fly paying passengers, regardless if they are airline, charter, or corporate. Thank you for pointing out a potentially dangerous oversight. I will right my reps immediately.
 
There has been some great points both for and against the repeal of the age 60 rule. For some of you, it seems to boil down to the fact that you think its discrimination not to allow you fly past your 60th birthday. The federal courts have already determined this not to be the case (read below), and for what its worth, I agree with the court. I have a vested interest in having the opportunity to get back into the airline industry and having senior pilots stay around longer or, gasp, come back from retirement because they didn't prepare in advance for the eventual day they wouldn't have a regular paycheck coming into their checking account scares me. As previous posters have noted, you don't have to stop flying; you can get your own aircraft, fly other than part 121, or start instructing. You had the privilege to live through the "boon" years with the airlines and at some time you're going to have to walk away.

UAL has taken a look at the repeal of the age 60 rule as well. Their VP-Ops, Capt Steve Forte, recently stated in a meeting at TK that in the beginning UAL mgt concurred with ALPA that the retirement age should remain at 60 but later changed their minds. However, most recently, they "crunched" some numbers and have agreed once more that the age should remain at 60. This industry has had too many changes and challenges lately. One more like this is not needed. By their calculations, about 1,200 retired pilots would come out of retirement. Captains would hence be surplused from fleets to fleets and create yet another nightmare. As a UAL furloughee that is an absolute nightmare of a possiblity. For those of you in my shoes or hoping to make the jump to a larger airline someday, this would also crush your "career expectations".

I'll also throw in some more ALPA information, or disinformation, as some may think. They do a decent job of going through the major points that have been brought up on this board and giving their opinion on each. More food for thought....

Agency Responsibility -- As the agency responsible for safety regulations, the FAA has reviewed the Age 60 Rule numerous times and determined it is warranted in the interest of maintaining the highest degree of safety in air transportation. Unless Congress or the Federal Courts find that the Age 60 Rule is not warranted on safety grounds or that the FAA acted in an arbitrary and capricious manner in establishing and maintaining the Rule, the determination of the FAA should be upheld.


Medical Basis of the Rule -- In a study directed by Congress in 1979, and conducted under the auspices of the National Institutes of Health, the study panel found that, “age-related changes in health and performance influence adversely the ability of increasing numbers of individuals to perform as pilots with the highest level of safety and, consequently, endanger the safety of the aviation system as a whole. Moreover, the Panel could not identify the existence of a medical or performance appraisal system that can single out those pilots who would pose the greatest hazard because of early, or impending, deterioration in health and performance.” The Panel recommended that the Age 60 Rule be retained and also applied to Part 135 carriers and pilots.


FAA Review of Cognitive Test -- In December, 2000, the FAA, after a thorough review of the most current cognitive testing technology known as CogScreen-AE (for aeromedical edition), concluded that, “In sum, there currently is no research showing which CogScreen-AE tests sufficiently identify age-related cognitive function deficits that would impact pilot performance and aircraft safety.” On appeal of this decision to the Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit, the Court, in Yetman v. Garvey, 261 F.3d 675 (2001), affirmed the FAA’s decision with the following conclusion: “Ultimately, we find that substantial evidence supports the FAA’s findings that CogScreen-AE is not, at this point, an adequate cognitive tool for determining whether an exemption to the Age Sixty Rule is warranted.”


Accident Studies – There have been numerous studies over the years that have attempted to correlate accident rates and the age of pilots. The results of these studies have been contradictory and inconclusive. The often-cited Hilton Study (The Age 60 Project Consolidated Database Experiments Final Report), 1993, was rejected by the FAA as a basis for changing the Rule, and the Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit upheld the FAA’s decision in Professional Pilots Federation (PPF) v. FAA, 118 F.3d 769 (1997). Critics have also asserted that accident rates are a very crude tool to examine the relationship between pilot age, health, and performance.


Age Discrimination -- Although the Rule mandates an “arbitrary” chronological age for retirement, it has been determined in federal court that it does not constitute age discrimination nor does it violate the Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA). In PPF v. FAA at 763, the Court held that, “nothing in the ADEA can plausibly be read to restrict the FAA from making age a criterion for employment when it acts in its capacity as the guarantor of public safety in the air. . . . Therefore, we conclude that the ADEA does not limit the authority of the FAA to prescribe a mandatory retirement age for pilots;”. Notwithstanding this opinion, increasing the mandatory retirement age for pilots to 63 or 65 would be no less arbitrary or discriminatory.


International Standards -- The claim is made that many foreign nations have increased their pilots retirement ages beyond 60. This is a misleading assertion. The international (ICAO) standard for retirement is still 60 for the pilot-in-command, and it is recommended, but not required, for the second-in-command. Some countries have modified their regulations for licensure purposes as one way to assist carriers with their pilot staffing needs. However, for most of the major national carriers the pilot retirement age is governed by their collective bargaining agreements, and in most cases the age is less than 60. Because of U.S. age discrimination law, such contractual provisions in U.S. carrier agreements would arguably be illegal. Generally, those carriers that allow pilots over 60 limit them to the second-in-command position.


Pilot Shortage and the Experience Factor – When legislation to repeal the Age 60 Rule was introduced in the Senate several years ago, it was argued that it was needed to address the pilot shortage and that we were losing our most experienced pilots. If there was a pilot shortage at that time, this is certainly not the case now with over 10,000 pilots on furlough because of the depressed economy and the unprecedented poor financial condition of the airline industry. Also, the experience argument is not valid. Although experience is an important factor in piloting as in any other profession, those pilots with 30 years of experience are not therefore the safest and most competent pilots. At some point the age and experience lines cross and the effects of aging on performance outweigh the number of years of experience. For example, no one would argue that a 75-year-old pilot with 50 years of experience is a better (or safer) pilot than a 50-year-old pilot with 25 years of experience. Most medical and scientific authorities are in agreement that if there is to be an arbitrary chronological age for retirement, age 60 is reasonable and warranted in the interest of maintaining the highest degree of safety.


Inhofe Bill – S. 959, introduced by Senator Inhofe, would raise the retirement age immediately to 63 which would open the way for pilots who had retired at 60, but are not yet 64, to return to work. Thereafter, the maximum age would be raised to 66. The back-to-work feature raises some interesting questions. For example: What rights would a retired pilot have to return to work at his former carrier? Would he be able to return with his full rank and seniority or would he go back as a new-hire at the bottom of the seniority list? Such questions should be clarified in the legislation or would most likely be litigated.

Great discussion so far and thanks for getting me better educated on the subject. Whatever your belief; for or against, don't forget to voice your opinion to your elected officials! Next up....
 
Hi!

The age 60 rule came into being when 1 guy from a major airline (AA I believe) sat down with 1 FAA and guy, and they decided "60!". They didn't do any studies, it was just their personal opinions. Why they picked a specific age? Probably so the airlines didn't have to pay senior pilots past 60, and their costs stayed down. There is no basis for the age 60 rule.

Now, after reading a number of the above posts:
As pilots get older, their skills, will, obviously, deteriorate at some point-we just don't know when.
Also, lots of us "young" guys need a major airline job, and those "old farts" need to get the hell out of our way.

Here's my great idea:
Let's LOWER the age, to, let's arbitrarily pick an age, "50!". That's it! Think of all the pilots that will be forced to retire! The airlines will be safer, because the pilots will be younger.

But wait, there's more! Why not reduce it to 45! Things will be better still! Why not 40! (I wouldn't like it, as I'd have to retire now, but hey, it fits with all of the logical arguments posted above!) Why stop now? 35, 30.

Let's make it 25. You get your ATP at age 23, and you retire at 25. There won't be any health problems, we'll all get to enjoy decades of retirement, with our health, and there'll be lots of room for the young guys.

What do U think?

Cliff
GRB
 
I like 50. Good idea! I'll write my congressmen today.

However, if you feel your skills have degraded since 25, I strongly suggest you do retire.
 

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