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Removing co-pilot seat
- Thread starter Mason
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Amish RakeFight
Registered Loser
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2005
- Posts
- 8,006
Mason,
Not enough information is provided. For what purpose do you intend to remove the seat? Who will remove it? Under what regulations are you operating (eg, 91 only, 135, etc)? Under what airworthiness limitations are you operating (restricted category, etc)? Is this a revenue flight? Does the aircaft have a MEL? What do you intend to put on the floor, if anything and have you investigated the load bearing limitations applicable too the floor area without a seat? (can you legally walk there?). Will you be retaining the flight controls in that position, and if so, what is done to protect them? Will cargo be carried which could interfere with the flight controls?
Are you asking if you can remove the seat, or if you can operate with it removed?
Not enough information is provided. For what purpose do you intend to remove the seat? Who will remove it? Under what regulations are you operating (eg, 91 only, 135, etc)? Under what airworthiness limitations are you operating (restricted category, etc)? Is this a revenue flight? Does the aircaft have a MEL? What do you intend to put on the floor, if anything and have you investigated the load bearing limitations applicable too the floor area without a seat? (can you legally walk there?). Will you be retaining the flight controls in that position, and if so, what is done to protect them? Will cargo be carried which could interfere with the flight controls?
Are you asking if you can remove the seat, or if you can operate with it removed?
Mechanic removes co-pilot seat, places it in the pilot position to replace original broken seat while new seat is on order, if armrest interferes with CB panel armrest will be removed, Part 91, no MEL, Not placing anything in its place, seat removed from tracks only, pan underneath is left, normal category aircraft, does this help??
Now I don't know the exact answer to that but I believe so with the EXCEPTION of a designation for right/left side..i.e. pilot/copilot seats.
You should be able to find the information in the airplane maintenance manual. When an airplane is certified it meets a given type design, which is very specific. The type design may or may not include flying with seats removed. For the manufacturer that I work for, it is unacceptable to fly with any seat missing. If you can't find any info in the maintenance manual or AFM, contact the Manufacturer.
The part numbers for the seats will be found in the Illustrated Parts Catalog or Illustrated Parts Bulletin. However, neither this nor the maintenance manual will tell you if you are legal to operate without the seat in place. If the seats are different part numbers but otherwise identical, you may be able to swap seats. With some seat assemblies this is possible, others it is not...in some cases because of the seat design, others the belt mounting attach points, in other cases the shape of the cockpit precludes swapping the seats because of the taper or clearance around circuit breaker panels, cockpit sidewalls, etc. Seats which incorporate track-specific locking mechanisms which may have been mandated by an airworthiness directive may not be swapped, as this invalidates not only the actions of the airworthiness directive (mandatory), but also invalidates the airworthiness certificate in accordance with line 6 of that certificate.
I know this sounds complicated for a seat swap...the point is, there may be a lot more involved.
Setting aside other issues, when you do swap the seat, what do you do with the broken one and can you fly without it? What about moving it to the other side, and placarding the broken seat inoperative? Others have touched on the issue of weight and balance, which must be accounted. Some seats incorporate components such as emergency batteries, or cover items such as emergency power supplies, circuit breakers, autopilot computers, etc. Removing the seat makes the system vulnerable and may present a safety of flight risk.
As an example, within the last few days I dealt with an older turbojet aircraft which had components adjacent to the seat removed. This exposed three wiring harnesses which were normally covered. The aircraft was experiencing erratic control issues. The autopilot was turning itself on, engaging itself, and taking control away from the pilot. Numerous other malfunctions were occuring, which were entirely without apparent logic. Yesterday I was able to determine that one of the three wire bundles, when moved slightly, could get the system to activate and release on it's own. Over and over. Breaking apart one of the pin connectors revealed a single wire that as intermittantly sliding in and out of a pin, an causing a host of problems. A number of us brainstormed over that, and were baffled. We wrung out wiring harnesses, chased things, replaced components. Very frustrating. All because the harness was exposed and had been subject to some inadvertant contact by someone at some time. Imagine the same in your aircraft...could be a cannon plug, could be a ciruit breaker...who knows. The point is that there may be things one never considers associated with what seems like such a simple concept.
It's just a seat...but seats unlocking, dropping, or not fitting properly have caused or contributed to fatal crashes.
You may be able to operate with the copilot seat in the captain position, but depending on the circumstances, you may have to put the bad seat in the copilot slot and placard it inoperative.
Limitations against operating with a seat out won't be found in the maintenance manual. These will by necessity represent aircraft limitations, and must be posted in the aircraft flight manual (and may even be required by placards). The load bearing capacity of your floor may preclude leaving that space empty. In some aircraft, the seat represents a very utilitarian purpose, and may be very station-specific (the OV-10, for example, uses otherwise identical seats, but mounts the parachute for the system on opposite sides...the weight of the parachute assembly determines which way the seat goes as it leaves the aircraft which has a critical determination on aircrew safety during an ejection. I understand you're unlikely to eject from your 402, and in all probability you won't have much hassle removing the seat, but it's going to take some checking on your part and the part of your mechanic.
Lacking a MEL, you'releft to fall back on 91.213...in which case you must determine if the equipment is required (a pilot seat at a pilot station certainly is, as part of the basic aircraft structure). If a second seat isn't required due to lack of a second pilot, then you need to refer to the aircraft flight manual to determine any limitations that apply. If you're repositioning the aircraft for repairs, then you should be obtaining a special flight permit ("ferry permit") which will allow repositioning the aircraft for repairs. The seat is part of the interior aircraft structure, and may or may not require a special authorization to be flown with the seat absent. Some aircraft in the basic equipment list cite the seats in or out, and give options, others do not. I don't have any 402 data before me, and can't quote you specifics about the type design or it's limitations...I can only try to highlight the concept that the topic may be broader than one initially realizes. Good luck.
I know this sounds complicated for a seat swap...the point is, there may be a lot more involved.
Setting aside other issues, when you do swap the seat, what do you do with the broken one and can you fly without it? What about moving it to the other side, and placarding the broken seat inoperative? Others have touched on the issue of weight and balance, which must be accounted. Some seats incorporate components such as emergency batteries, or cover items such as emergency power supplies, circuit breakers, autopilot computers, etc. Removing the seat makes the system vulnerable and may present a safety of flight risk.
As an example, within the last few days I dealt with an older turbojet aircraft which had components adjacent to the seat removed. This exposed three wiring harnesses which were normally covered. The aircraft was experiencing erratic control issues. The autopilot was turning itself on, engaging itself, and taking control away from the pilot. Numerous other malfunctions were occuring, which were entirely without apparent logic. Yesterday I was able to determine that one of the three wire bundles, when moved slightly, could get the system to activate and release on it's own. Over and over. Breaking apart one of the pin connectors revealed a single wire that as intermittantly sliding in and out of a pin, an causing a host of problems. A number of us brainstormed over that, and were baffled. We wrung out wiring harnesses, chased things, replaced components. Very frustrating. All because the harness was exposed and had been subject to some inadvertant contact by someone at some time. Imagine the same in your aircraft...could be a cannon plug, could be a ciruit breaker...who knows. The point is that there may be things one never considers associated with what seems like such a simple concept.
It's just a seat...but seats unlocking, dropping, or not fitting properly have caused or contributed to fatal crashes.
You may be able to operate with the copilot seat in the captain position, but depending on the circumstances, you may have to put the bad seat in the copilot slot and placard it inoperative.
Limitations against operating with a seat out won't be found in the maintenance manual. These will by necessity represent aircraft limitations, and must be posted in the aircraft flight manual (and may even be required by placards). The load bearing capacity of your floor may preclude leaving that space empty. In some aircraft, the seat represents a very utilitarian purpose, and may be very station-specific (the OV-10, for example, uses otherwise identical seats, but mounts the parachute for the system on opposite sides...the weight of the parachute assembly determines which way the seat goes as it leaves the aircraft which has a critical determination on aircrew safety during an ejection. I understand you're unlikely to eject from your 402, and in all probability you won't have much hassle removing the seat, but it's going to take some checking on your part and the part of your mechanic.
Lacking a MEL, you'releft to fall back on 91.213...in which case you must determine if the equipment is required (a pilot seat at a pilot station certainly is, as part of the basic aircraft structure). If a second seat isn't required due to lack of a second pilot, then you need to refer to the aircraft flight manual to determine any limitations that apply. If you're repositioning the aircraft for repairs, then you should be obtaining a special flight permit ("ferry permit") which will allow repositioning the aircraft for repairs. The seat is part of the interior aircraft structure, and may or may not require a special authorization to be flown with the seat absent. Some aircraft in the basic equipment list cite the seats in or out, and give options, others do not. I don't have any 402 data before me, and can't quote you specifics about the type design or it's limitations...I can only try to highlight the concept that the topic may be broader than one initially realizes. Good luck.
Hung Start
Just the cleanup guy
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2004
- Posts
- 701
I have the answer on this, because it happened to me when I owned a bunch of 402c's .
Had the small reclining mechanism snap on the pilots side, from using the crew hatch to go in and out. Mechanic swapped the seats from left to right on the road, (they are interchangable) and pilot flew plane home. The recliner mechanism would not keep the seat back upright, it would lean backwards. It could not go forward into the controlls. Our mechanics removed the seat for repair.
FAA ramped checked the aircraft in Albany the next night, and blew a fuse. Claimed the pilot had put freight in the seat pedastal, (his headset bag) and blah, blah, blah. So, with the help of my local FSDO, found the type certificate called the aircraft for a crew of 1, and no second cockpit seat is required.
By the way, you could actually put freight on the seat pedastal, because the seat belts are attached to the pedastal and not the seat itself. So, you can strap it in. There is no prohibition on that.
You DO need to show the seat removed, and a revised Weight and Balance figure.
Simple enough
Hung
Had the small reclining mechanism snap on the pilots side, from using the crew hatch to go in and out. Mechanic swapped the seats from left to right on the road, (they are interchangable) and pilot flew plane home. The recliner mechanism would not keep the seat back upright, it would lean backwards. It could not go forward into the controlls. Our mechanics removed the seat for repair.
FAA ramped checked the aircraft in Albany the next night, and blew a fuse. Claimed the pilot had put freight in the seat pedastal, (his headset bag) and blah, blah, blah. So, with the help of my local FSDO, found the type certificate called the aircraft for a crew of 1, and no second cockpit seat is required.
By the way, you could actually put freight on the seat pedastal, because the seat belts are attached to the pedastal and not the seat itself. So, you can strap it in. There is no prohibition on that.
You DO need to show the seat removed, and a revised Weight and Balance figure.
Simple enough
Hung
Last edited:
momalley81
Done spillt mah beer...
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2002
- Posts
- 256
Except for all those switches on the LH switch panel there underneath the crew door. You know, minor ones like starter, master, alternator, anti-ice, lights, ect...
Unless you're like 7'2" tall or something...
Hung Start
Just the cleanup guy
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2004
- Posts
- 701
Not to mention doing the usual New England 200/ 1/2 stuff with your vor, adf and HSI head about 4 feet away from your scan.
And, your push to talk switch, electric trim switch, master disconnect switch for the A/P (if you were that lucky) are just not that handy.
Just doesn't seem that wise,,,,
Hung
And, your push to talk switch, electric trim switch, master disconnect switch for the A/P (if you were that lucky) are just not that handy.
Just doesn't seem that wise,,,,
Hung
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