Removing alternate

[capt. megadeth]

If you are dispatched with an alternate and a new TAF comes out enroute that would not require an alternate, can you remove it with an amendment? I know you can change your alternate, but can you remove it?

 

[Dinger]

I imagine you could, but why would you worry about it. You've already launched and your fuel/pax load has been determined. I can see that it may matter if it changed before you pushed back, allowing you to carry less fuel and more pax/bags. I guess I just don't see what good it would do.

I know you asked if you could. I have never seen anything indicating you couldn't.

 

[minitour]

I imagine you could, but why would you worry about it. You've already launched and your fuel/pax load has been determined. I can see that it may matter if it changed before you pushed back, allowing you to carry less fuel and more pax/bags. I guess I just don't see what good it would do.

I know you asked if you could. I have never seen anything indicating you couldn't.

Agreed. I'm sure you can (didn't look anything up), but why?

If you don't need an alternate and you're already airborn, aren't you just going to end up at your filed destination?

-mini

 

[midlifeflyer]

Is this a question dealing with special requirements under Part 135, 121 or OpSpecs?

If we're dealing strictly with 91.169 issues, I can understand why one might want to report a change so someone would know in the case of lost comm. But other than that, I'm not sure why one would want to bother remove an alternate completely.

 

[FlyingDawg]

Heres one example that happened to me this past weekend of when you might want to change an alternate.

You might want to change an alternate if your operating using Exemption 3585. I've done it many times. Remember under 121.639 you must have fuel to destination, to most distant alternate and 45 minutes afterwards. While holding we saw that we might need more fuel so we amended our release so the most distant of our 2 alternates was closer, allowing us to hold longer. Our company normally uses one hub city of the two required alternates so passengers can be rerouted in case of a divert. In this case by ammending the hub city to something closer allowed us to hold longer until the fog lifted.

It might also be noted that one needs to be careful when diverting to something otherthan their alternate. Make sure you still have fuel on board to continue to your alternate (if its not ammended or dropped) when you divert to something otherthan the alternate.

Example:

Suppose your going to RSW with an alternate of MIA. You need fuel to RSW + fuel to MIA + 45 minutes. If you divert to FLL (change of destination) without dropping MIA as alternate (you might still need it because of 1-2-3 rule at FLL) you will now need fuel to FLL + fuel to MIA + 45 minutes. However if diverting to MIA you only need fuel to MIA + 45 minutes.

But in the case where the weather is not requiring an alternate for FLL then the alternate could be dropped requiring only fuel to FLL + 45 minutes. So I say yes you can drop an alternate.

 

[Dinger]

Good points flyngDawg. Those are things a heads-up PIC can do if it looks like you might actually have to USE your alternate. But once you launch, REMOVING an alternate altogether is kind of a mute point since you already launched with dest + alt. fuel.

I have flown for two 121 carriers, and have never had to worry about dropping an alternate altogether.

If I start thinking about all of "situations" in aviation that may be in the gray zone, I instantly begin a steep decending spiral.....controls locked.....down, down, down I go.

 

[Lead Sled]

But once you launch, REMOVING an alternate altogether is kind of a mute point since you already launched with dest + alt. fuel.

That's what those "Fuel Dump" switches are for.

Hey don't laugh, 20 years a go there was a newbie FE at Western Airlines who tried to balance fuel in one of their 727s by dumping. Her airline career was short lived.

'Sled

 

[profile]

For 121 operators, how do you handle the following scenario:

1. Alternate required due to ops specs/wx, etc.

2. Alternte weather drops to below min required after departure.

3. Diversion not possible due to environment (International, etc).

4. No other alternates available within fuel range that can be filed.

Do you:

1. Declare an emergency to continue?

2. Declare and go to a divert field?

If you do declare, do you tell ATC this or is this an internal thing?

This can be a real scenario for many parts of the world.

 

[rvsm410]

From dispatch point of view

For 121 operators, how do you handle the following scenario:

1. Alternate required due to ops specs/wx, etc.

2. Alternte weather drops to below min required after departure.

3. Diversion not possible due to environment (International, etc).

4. No other alternates available within fuel range that can be filed.

Do you:

1. Declare an emergency to continue?

2. Declare and go to a divert field?

If you do declare, do you tell ATC this or is this an internal thing?

This can be a real scenario for many parts of the world.

First of all as a pilot and a licensed dispatcher we must be clear on what regs were are addressing. Under part 91 rules the PIC is totally in charge of all preflight planning and for the operation of his/her aircraft from start to finish. I second the comments above as it pertains to part 91 ops. I dont see any advantage to canx a good alternate airport on the flight plan.

As for operating under 121 the ball game is much different in many ways and the same in some. "side note" Profiler: by the aircraft you list to have operated you must know the answers to your own questions, but I regress.

In 121 ops there is a group of people called "dispatchers" They are licensed airmen responsible for "Sharing operational control" with the PIC of every flight the airline operates under the 121 regs. I.E. Flight control. We are responsible for the flights weather, route of flight "plan" basic weight and balance criteria, fuel and alternate airport selection, filing the flight plans, not to mention monitoring the enroute progress of each flight and lending a hand to assist the flight crews with any and all needs as it relates to the safety of flight issues. We have been trained on the aircraft we release at least to a point of basic systems understanding in case things go south, of course we have the maintenance controllers and schedulers available to assist us at anytime.

As to #1 and #2, We all have the basic rules outlined in the regs that we all must follow as a minimum. First what is the weather at the departure arpt, along the enroute of flight, and then the distination. Based on this information and then applying regs and the requirements of our company OPS SPECS to determine the answers to these flight planning questions.

We also look at any MELS and CDLS that are on your aircraft and make reduction in performance, payloads to conform to the penalties each item demands. We also coordinate tail swaps and work with maintenance to get aircraft into repair

T/O ALT req? if so, is min weather within the single engine ops distance of the acft?
Enroute: A good dispatcher is going to know the weather systems in the areas of the flights and be ready to assist the crews in case of a diversion to the best airport suited to meet the need of the flight, i.e. weather, medical, mechanical, and PAX concerns and try to make the safest and most economical judgement as to where the crew should divert.

Of course the PIC always has the utimate authority to operate the aircraft in anyway they see fit, however if the PIC goes against the direction of dispatch then the crew is now operating under "emergency" authority and is now fully responsible for everything from that point on in that flight.

As to #3..Your SOL...emergency situation get all help possible and get on the ground.

As to #4: If you on the ground planning a flight and there is no suitable alternate then you cant go if the distination is below mins...

In 121 ops, you can not drop an alternate just for the heck of it, you can ammend the release with the dispatcher for another location once it has been determined by dispatch that you have the fuel and weather to do so safely.

Once again, the 121 regs are clear on operational control, a PIC can deviate from a flight release, his company dispatch department and ATC at any time they feel the sitaution deems it so, but it is now absolutely considered and "emergency situation" of which the crews will be required to fully explain in writing assuming the out come of the flight is successful.

As to OPs Specs: the FAA approves different procedures, reduces minimum weather requirements based on the companies equipment, training and its desired operatioinal area...too may factors here to detail, but "ABC" may be able to fly CAT111(c) apchs to zero zero when the others are gounded or in Holds waiting for better weather.

MAybe this did not answer all your question, but there are any books written to address the question you asked, so I hope this helps.

We may not be in the pointy end of the can with you, and I fully respect the position of being the PIC, but the dispatchers in the business today do alot of work before most people even get to the airport and the sad thing about all this is that we all do it for a pay scale between $11.50 to (if your very lucky) $15 bucks an hour after 15 years......(rant off) sorry had to get my 2 cents in...Your not the only bunch underpaid and overworked! Ha!

Oh yea, about what you say to ATC....be honest first off...tell them what is happening, what your situatioin is, fuel remaining, ask for help.....IN reality time permitting ask your dispatch office for help early on if you see a potiential situation developing, dispatchers should be doing this for you in an ideal world and many do but dispatch can do alot for you including working with ATC and airport towers, facilities services, medical needs etc....stay ahead of the situations so you can and let your eyes on the ground (dispatch) keep you out of trouble that can be avoided.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Yes, you can remove the alternate if it is no longer required.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Thanks for the replies. It was a discussion that came about regarding a policy at my company as to when they want you to declare a fuel emergency. Long story. Thanks again.

 

[rvsm410]

Most interested

Yes, you can remove the alternate if it is no longer required.

Really, please provide the 121 reg that allows the removal of an alternate while in flight or in any other instance where the alternate was required based on the flight planned weather?

And second, why would you want to?

 

[FlyingDawg]

Really, please provide the 121 reg that allows the removal of an alternate while in flight or in any other instance where the alternate was required based on the flight planned weather?

And second, why would you want to?

Where in the FAR's does it forbid it?

You might want to remove an alternate when holding and can't get in to destination airport. Instead of diverting to alternate, you might want to go to a hub airport. You might not have enough fuel to continue to hub + 45 minutes + fuel to alternate. By dropping the alternate (weather permitting) you would only need fuel to hub + 45 minutes.

 

[Crosswind79]

I agree with being able to drop the alternate.....I am a CFI and a Dispatcher for a 121 Major and a lot of times you plan a flight with a precautionary alternate only to have a new taf come out. Add to that the fact that your going into DEN, PHL, EWR, and hold fuel becomes very valuable. Drop the alternate and put that fuel into hold.....Makes the pax happier when they actually get to the airport on their ticket too......

 

[igneousy2]

Suppose your going to RSW with an alternate of MIA. You need fuel to RSW + fuel to MIA + 45 minutes. If you divert to FLL (change of destination) without dropping MIA as alternate (you might still need it because of 1-2-3 rule at FLL) you will now need fuel to FLL + fuel to MIA + 45 minutes. However if diverting to MIA you only need fuel to MIA + 45 minutes.

But in the case where the weather is not requiring an alternate for FLL then the alternate could be dropped requiring only fuel to FLL + 45 minutes. So I say yes you can drop an alternate.

Are you saying that if you divert to FLL (i.e. could not get into RSW) that you must still have enough fuel to get to your alternate?

I don't read that in the regs.

Sec. 121.639

Fuel supply: All domestic operations.

No person may dispatch or take off an airplane unless it has enough fuel--
(a) To fly to the airport to which it is dispatched;
(b) Thereafter, to fly to and land at the most distant alternate airport (where required) for the airport to which dispatched; and
(c) Thereafter, to fly for 45 minutes at normal cruising fuel consumption

Once you launch...and then divert...I don't see where it requires you to still be able to make your alternate. Is there another reg that requires this?

Later

 

[FlyingDawg]

If you divert to something other than your alternate and the weather there is less than 1-2-3 or the METAR weather requires an alternate then technically you must have fuel to new destination + fuel to required alternate + 45 min. If you divert to alternate then you only need fuel to alternate + 45 minutes.

I think the following orders will lead you to the same conclusion:

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4866.PDF

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4955.PDF

 

[Ganja60Heavy]

A most commonly misunderstood concept...."alternate"

It is part of a legal flight plan and dispatch release. The term "alternate" is used to describe a suitable airport, based on forecast weather conditions, for flight planning a theoretical diversion. However, it is only an exercise in fuel planning, and has no meaning once enroute.

IT IS ONLY FOR FUEL PLANNING PURPOSES. THE CONCEPT DISAPPEARS AT BRAKE RELEASE.

Once the flight begins, forget about the alternate.....it is a non-entity. In case of diversion, you may land anywhere, even at an airport which is "alternate NA" on the approach plates. Just keep an eye on the weather, but changing a flight plan enroute is only appropriate in case of a re-file or re-dispatch.

This is so friggin misunderstood.

The above-linked ntsb articles are interesting and recommended reading. The "administrator" tried to yank 2 USAir pilots' certificates based on the Part 91 "reckless operation" clause which is the FAA's catch-all. They tried to divert to a nearby airport with 1/4 mile in heavy snow (maybe a bit reckless), then declared "minimum fuel" to cut the line of 12 planes waiting to try the approach.

Don't piss off ATC!!

 

[Snoopy58]

Ganja -- good answer!

Real world example: flying in the southern US in the summertime, it's not uncommon to have that quarter of the continent all have some chance of thunderstorms in all the forecasts. You may have an hour's flight from A to B, but to get an alternate without the chance of thunderstorms you might have another 3 or 4 hours to get there. BUT, the CB's aren't everywhere, so you file what you can & away you go. You get to your destination, only to find it covered with a massive but unmoving CB. Time to go elsewhere. Find someplace clear & desirable (from a perspective of facilities / equipment / accommodating pax / company presence / good pilot lounge / whatever), and go there. If what you'd filed as your alternate is, at that time, ALSO looking at a big lightning show, you discard it from consideration & press on with your decisionmaking process... I've got X fuel on board, and I can get to the following fields with my 0:45 (or whatever your book says) reserve... what's the smartest place to go?

You would NOT tie yourself to keeping fuel to get to your divert AND from there to your filed-but-useless alternate in the tanks! You do what makes best sense at the time... it would be silly to, for instance, restrict your consideration of divert fields to only those that are close enough that you could divert there without burning into the "and get from here to (someplace we aren't going to really go)" fuel.

Alternates are for FILING purposes. Dispatchers also watch them a bit during the course of your flight so that, for instance, if one goes down they can come up with a new gameplan (revise the release, make YYY the alternate instead of XXX, etc). HOWEVER, the filed alternate is IN NO WAY restrictive of your options if you find yourself needing to divert.

As for declaring Emergency Fuel, if you as PIC see yourself as having a critically low fuel state, then by all means declare it. However, if I'm diverting to a field with reasonable weather and I'll get there with my 0+45 reserves (or whatever amount you're required to have overhead the alternate), I wouldn't see any point in declaring emergency fuel nor even min fuel, simply because by the time I get there I couldn't do a SECOND divert to the "filed" alternate.

For the original question, I'll offer this: a release can be revised in flight, and the book I fly with doesn't restrict that removing an alternate can NOT be a revision... so I'd say there's nothing preventing it. For most operations, there wouldn't be an advantage to it, although I can think of one oddball case where it would: operating to a remote destination with a somewhat distant alternate, the destination weather goes from low overcast to clear (& forecast to remain that way) sooner than expected, while the alternate goes from okay to below mins. From a dispatcher's perspective, there might be an advantage to revise the release based on the new conditions (alternate not required) rather than try to formulate a gameplan based on dealing with an alternate that's now unusable... particularly if such a gameplan might require an expensive option like turning back or some such. Not generally a factor in domestic operations, but might be a player going to remote islands or somesuch.

 

[dispatchguy]

Really, please provide the 121 reg that allows the removal of an alternate while in flight or in any other instance where the alternate was required based on the flight planned weather?

And second, why would you want to?

121.631(C) - can amend for close to anything you want. For example, after departure, you can amend to add an alternate (if youve got the gas), delete an alternate (if you can), a new route of flight to calculate if youve got the gas, etc. Notice all those amendments are to determine if youve got the gas to do something, to adhere to 121.639 and 121.645. The only real reg that applies enroute is 121.627, as long as youre not unsafe; you're cool.

Releases arent static, while they apply predeparture, your job, at a 121 domestic or flag operation, must also adhere to current conditions. If those conditions change, 121.627 AND 121.639/.645 require you to amend the release to reflect changing conditions.

I WOULDNT, however, amend to add an MEL or CDL item that has occurred enroute (unless your FOM specifically requires the amendment), since the MEL is advisory only (but it obviously does apply to any subsequent redeparture), crew names, etc. HOWEVER, there have been times where I have been called enroute and asked on the radio if we had added such and such MEL already - and sometimes I have told the crew "dont you remember we did that on your cell at 2215Z? (make up a time that was pre pushback)"

"Oh yeah"

 

[lithstrip]

If you fly under 121 supplemental you must always have an Alternate listed on the release. All other circumstances under which you can amend the release still apply, We will amend to a closer Alt. if WX allows to gain additional hold time at Dest. or to a different Alt. if the wx goes below derived mins at the Alt. on the release