capt. megadeth
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Removing alternate
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I imagine you could, but why would you worry about it. You've already launched and your fuel/pax load has been determined. I can see that it may matter if it changed before you pushed back, allowing you to carry less fuel and more pax/bags. I guess I just don't see what good it would do.
I know you asked if you could. I have never seen anything indicating you couldn't.
I know you asked if you could. I have never seen anything indicating you couldn't.
midlifeflyer
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Is this a question dealing with special requirements under Part 135, 121 or OpSpecs?
If we're dealing strictly with 91.169 issues, I can understand why one might want to report a change so someone would know in the case of lost comm. But other than that, I'm not sure why one would want to bother remove an alternate completely.
If we're dealing strictly with 91.169 issues, I can understand why one might want to report a change so someone would know in the case of lost comm. But other than that, I'm not sure why one would want to bother remove an alternate completely.
FlyingDawg
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Heres one example that happened to me this past weekend of when you might want to change an alternate.
You might want to change an alternate if your operating using Exemption 3585. I've done it many times. Remember under 121.639 you must have fuel to destination, to most distant alternate and 45 minutes afterwards. While holding we saw that we might need more fuel so we amended our release so the most distant of our 2 alternates was closer, allowing us to hold longer. Our company normally uses one hub city of the two required alternates so passengers can be rerouted in case of a divert. In this case by ammending the hub city to something closer allowed us to hold longer until the fog lifted.
It might also be noted that one needs to be careful when diverting to something otherthan their alternate. Make sure you still have fuel on board to continue to your alternate (if its not ammended or dropped) when you divert to something otherthan the alternate.
Example:
Suppose your going to RSW with an alternate of MIA. You need fuel to RSW + fuel to MIA + 45 minutes. If you divert to FLL (change of destination) without dropping MIA as alternate (you might still need it because of 1-2-3 rule at FLL) you will now need fuel to FLL + fuel to MIA + 45 minutes. However if diverting to MIA you only need fuel to MIA + 45 minutes.
But in the case where the weather is not requiring an alternate for FLL then the alternate could be dropped requiring only fuel to FLL + 45 minutes. So I say yes you can drop an alternate.
You might want to change an alternate if your operating using Exemption 3585. I've done it many times. Remember under 121.639 you must have fuel to destination, to most distant alternate and 45 minutes afterwards. While holding we saw that we might need more fuel so we amended our release so the most distant of our 2 alternates was closer, allowing us to hold longer. Our company normally uses one hub city of the two required alternates so passengers can be rerouted in case of a divert. In this case by ammending the hub city to something closer allowed us to hold longer until the fog lifted.
It might also be noted that one needs to be careful when diverting to something otherthan their alternate. Make sure you still have fuel on board to continue to your alternate (if its not ammended or dropped) when you divert to something otherthan the alternate.
Example:
Suppose your going to RSW with an alternate of MIA. You need fuel to RSW + fuel to MIA + 45 minutes. If you divert to FLL (change of destination) without dropping MIA as alternate (you might still need it because of 1-2-3 rule at FLL) you will now need fuel to FLL + fuel to MIA + 45 minutes. However if diverting to MIA you only need fuel to MIA + 45 minutes.
But in the case where the weather is not requiring an alternate for FLL then the alternate could be dropped requiring only fuel to FLL + 45 minutes. So I say yes you can drop an alternate.
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Good points flyngDawg. Those are things a heads-up PIC can do if it looks like you might actually have to USE your alternate. But once you launch, REMOVING an alternate altogether is kind of a mute point since you already launched with dest + alt. fuel.
I have flown for two 121 carriers, and have never had to worry about dropping an alternate altogether.
If I start thinking about all of "situations" in aviation that may be in the gray zone, I instantly begin a steep decending spiral.....controls locked.....down, down, down I go.
I have flown for two 121 carriers, and have never had to worry about dropping an alternate altogether.
If I start thinking about all of "situations" in aviation that may be in the gray zone, I instantly begin a steep decending spiral.....controls locked.....down, down, down I go.
Lead Sled
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Shem Malmquist
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For 121 operators, how do you handle the following scenario:
1. Alternate required due to ops specs/wx, etc.
2. Alternte weather drops to below min required after departure.
3. Diversion not possible due to environment (International, etc).
4. No other alternates available within fuel range that can be filed.
Do you:
1. Declare an emergency to continue?
2. Declare and go to a divert field?
If you do declare, do you tell ATC this or is this an internal thing?
This can be a real scenario for many parts of the world.
1. Alternate required due to ops specs/wx, etc.
2. Alternte weather drops to below min required after departure.
3. Diversion not possible due to environment (International, etc).
4. No other alternates available within fuel range that can be filed.
Do you:
1. Declare an emergency to continue?
2. Declare and go to a divert field?
If you do declare, do you tell ATC this or is this an internal thing?
This can be a real scenario for many parts of the world.
From dispatch point of view
As for operating under 121 the ball game is much different in many ways and the same in some. "side note" Profiler: by the aircraft you list to have operated you must know the answers to your own questions, but I regress.
In 121 ops there is a group of people called "dispatchers" They are licensed airmen responsible for "Sharing operational control" with the PIC of every flight the airline operates under the 121 regs. I.E. Flight control. We are responsible for the flights weather, route of flight "plan" basic weight and balance criteria, fuel and alternate airport selection, filing the flight plans, not to mention monitoring the enroute progress of each flight and lending a hand to assist the flight crews with any and all needs as it relates to the safety of flight issues. We have been trained on the aircraft we release at least to a point of basic systems understanding in case things go south, of course we have the maintenance controllers and schedulers available to assist us at anytime.
As to #1 and #2, We all have the basic rules outlined in the regs that we all must follow as a minimum. First what is the weather at the departure arpt, along the enroute of flight, and then the distination. Based on this information and then applying regs and the requirements of our company OPS SPECS to determine the answers to these flight planning questions.
We also look at any MELS and CDLS that are on your aircraft and make reduction in performance, payloads to conform to the penalties each item demands. We also coordinate tail swaps and work with maintenance to get aircraft into repair
T/O ALT req? if so, is min weather within the single engine ops distance of the acft?
Enroute: A good dispatcher is going to know the weather systems in the areas of the flights and be ready to assist the crews in case of a diversion to the best airport suited to meet the need of the flight, i.e. weather, medical, mechanical, and PAX concerns and try to make the safest and most economical judgement as to where the crew should divert.
Of course the PIC always has the utimate authority to operate the aircraft in anyway they see fit, however if the PIC goes against the direction of dispatch then the crew is now operating under "emergency" authority and is now fully responsible for everything from that point on in that flight.
As to #3..Your SOL...emergency situation get all help possible and get on the ground.
As to #4: If you on the ground planning a flight and there is no suitable alternate then you cant go if the distination is below mins...
In 121 ops, you can not drop an alternate just for the heck of it, you can ammend the release with the dispatcher for another location once it has been determined by dispatch that you have the fuel and weather to do so safely.
Once again, the 121 regs are clear on operational control, a PIC can deviate from a flight release, his company dispatch department and ATC at any time they feel the sitaution deems it so, but it is now absolutely considered and "emergency situation" of which the crews will be required to fully explain in writing assuming the out come of the flight is successful.
As to OPs Specs: the FAA approves different procedures, reduces minimum weather requirements based on the companies equipment, training and its desired operatioinal area...too may factors here to detail, but "ABC" may be able to fly CAT111(c) apchs to zero zero when the others are gounded or in Holds waiting for better weather.
MAybe this did not answer all your question, but there are any books written to address the question you asked, so I hope this helps.
We may not be in the pointy end of the can with you, and I fully respect the position of being the PIC, but the dispatchers in the business today do alot of work before most people even get to the airport and the sad thing about all this is that we all do it for a pay scale between $11.50 to (if your very lucky) $15 bucks an hour after 15 years......(rant off) sorry had to get my 2 cents in...Your not the only bunch underpaid and overworked! Ha!
Oh yea, about what you say to ATC....be honest first off...tell them what is happening, what your situatioin is, fuel remaining, ask for help.....IN reality time permitting ask your dispatch office for help early on if you see a potiential situation developing, dispatchers should be doing this for you in an ideal world and many do but dispatch can do alot for you including working with ATC and airport towers, facilities services, medical needs etc....stay ahead of the situations so you can and let your eyes on the ground (dispatch) keep you out of trouble that can be avoided.
First of all as a pilot and a licensed dispatcher we must be clear on what regs were are addressing. Under part 91 rules the PIC is totally in charge of all preflight planning and for the operation of his/her aircraft from start to finish. I second the comments above as it pertains to part 91 ops. I dont see any advantage to canx a good alternate airport on the flight plan.profile said:
As for operating under 121 the ball game is much different in many ways and the same in some. "side note" Profiler: by the aircraft you list to have operated you must know the answers to your own questions, but I regress.
In 121 ops there is a group of people called "dispatchers" They are licensed airmen responsible for "Sharing operational control" with the PIC of every flight the airline operates under the 121 regs. I.E. Flight control. We are responsible for the flights weather, route of flight "plan" basic weight and balance criteria, fuel and alternate airport selection, filing the flight plans, not to mention monitoring the enroute progress of each flight and lending a hand to assist the flight crews with any and all needs as it relates to the safety of flight issues. We have been trained on the aircraft we release at least to a point of basic systems understanding in case things go south, of course we have the maintenance controllers and schedulers available to assist us at anytime.
As to #1 and #2, We all have the basic rules outlined in the regs that we all must follow as a minimum. First what is the weather at the departure arpt, along the enroute of flight, and then the distination. Based on this information and then applying regs and the requirements of our company OPS SPECS to determine the answers to these flight planning questions.
We also look at any MELS and CDLS that are on your aircraft and make reduction in performance, payloads to conform to the penalties each item demands. We also coordinate tail swaps and work with maintenance to get aircraft into repair
T/O ALT req? if so, is min weather within the single engine ops distance of the acft?
Enroute: A good dispatcher is going to know the weather systems in the areas of the flights and be ready to assist the crews in case of a diversion to the best airport suited to meet the need of the flight, i.e. weather, medical, mechanical, and PAX concerns and try to make the safest and most economical judgement as to where the crew should divert.
Of course the PIC always has the utimate authority to operate the aircraft in anyway they see fit, however if the PIC goes against the direction of dispatch then the crew is now operating under "emergency" authority and is now fully responsible for everything from that point on in that flight.
As to #3..Your SOL...emergency situation get all help possible and get on the ground.
As to #4: If you on the ground planning a flight and there is no suitable alternate then you cant go if the distination is below mins...
In 121 ops, you can not drop an alternate just for the heck of it, you can ammend the release with the dispatcher for another location once it has been determined by dispatch that you have the fuel and weather to do so safely.
Once again, the 121 regs are clear on operational control, a PIC can deviate from a flight release, his company dispatch department and ATC at any time they feel the sitaution deems it so, but it is now absolutely considered and "emergency situation" of which the crews will be required to fully explain in writing assuming the out come of the flight is successful.
As to OPs Specs: the FAA approves different procedures, reduces minimum weather requirements based on the companies equipment, training and its desired operatioinal area...too may factors here to detail, but "ABC" may be able to fly CAT111(c) apchs to zero zero when the others are gounded or in Holds waiting for better weather.
MAybe this did not answer all your question, but there are any books written to address the question you asked, so I hope this helps.
We may not be in the pointy end of the can with you, and I fully respect the position of being the PIC, but the dispatchers in the business today do alot of work before most people even get to the airport and the sad thing about all this is that we all do it for a pay scale between $11.50 to (if your very lucky) $15 bucks an hour after 15 years......(rant off) sorry had to get my 2 cents in...Your not the only bunch underpaid and overworked! Ha!
Oh yea, about what you say to ATC....be honest first off...tell them what is happening, what your situatioin is, fuel remaining, ask for help.....IN reality time permitting ask your dispatch office for help early on if you see a potiential situation developing, dispatchers should be doing this for you in an ideal world and many do but dispatch can do alot for you including working with ATC and airport towers, facilities services, medical needs etc....stay ahead of the situations so you can and let your eyes on the ground (dispatch) keep you out of trouble that can be avoided.
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FlyChicaga
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