Reliability Gulf - Dassault ?

[Senior_Citizen]

You keep mentioning the "5X." I've searched high and low DFJ's U.S. and French websites and find nothing. An internet search brings up one article in 2002 when even the 7X was an early dream.

I wouldn't be surprised they're considering something like this, however I'm curious where the rampant "rumors" are coming from when even their own websites have no references to it.

Curious,
2000Flyer

What's the surprise? just see the industry's tendences: Gulf launch the G450, then the G350 (the same plane but with less usable fuel), Bombardier launches the GEx, then the G5000 (the same plane but with a shortned fuselage and less fuel usable fuel), also Dassult previously does the same thing with the 900EX and the 900DX.

My sources are't from the web, but if you read this article, you'll find some evidence about I said.

http://www.avbuyer.com/Editorial/Teal Group Aug03.asp

Dassault will have a relatively easier time finding the cash for other new products, probably using the 7X as the nucleus of a family of variant

At the page 50 of this article you'll can found new light

http://www.aviationnow.com/shownews/04nbaa/images/sn_nbaa04_1.pdf
http://www.aviationnow.com/shownews/04nbaa/index.htm

... but with its new wing and concurrent
design and assembly methodology, it is already
being viewed as the base of a new line of jets for
the 21st century.

JOHN ROSANVALLON, PRESIDENT AND CEO, DASSAULT FALCON

 

[Senior_Citizen]

Ahh Ok the "5X" name is mere speculation, but the refered plane is underway

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Hey guys, if you wanna help, please giveme more arguments, sorry...

Just comments your experiences, not your desires, all of us dreams with the 7X, (also my boss), but we need a big plane earlier than 2008 , also is inminet the launch of a new Cockpit for the Bombardier's Globals identical to the Easy, also with some improvements.

Our situations is the Following, now we have a VW, but we have enough cash for the new announced (hypotetical) Ferrari F7X "Shumacher" , its spectacular, but we can't touch this car until the next Xmas, What we do?, now we think to buy a BMW M6 or a Porsche 911Turbo.

The Gulf's Salesman shows us a unique "ideal" deal: if we contract the G450 and they could sell us and imediately deliver us a 2nds hand G200, we would fly the G200 until the delivery of our G450, the price paid by the G200 would be discounted of the price of the G450, less commissions, depreciancion, etc. The problem with this deal is that the G200 requires more runaway than the G450, and can't land on some of the runaways we used to land, also our crews don't have a G200 rating.

The G450 and the Da900EX covers our performance requirements, we only have doubts about the 900's runaway requeriments on wet surface, the 900 lands slower, but has only one thust reverser.

where can you land your 450 that you cant land a G200? thats sounds odd to me...

Dont take the G200 in for any period of time, all you will do is turn your company off from corporate aviation.

While waiting for delivery of a 450 or a 550 you can certainly lease a used one.

G200 - JUST SAY NO.

Also regarding the 900EX. Great airplane but YES that one TR issue is a real concern IMHO and it certainly has caused us to not take it into runways that Dassaults numbers "work" on...but we have other a/c. Take a glance at the contaminated runway required for landing in a 900EX. If I recall, it is something like 350% of the dry runway number.....in other words, to abide by the book - you cant land a 900EX on a contaminated runway less than 9-10K feet. Nice.

 

[Senior_Citizen]

where can you land your 450 that you cant land a G200? thats sounds odd to me...

Really the problem isn't the landing, but to T.O. and fly 2700 nm as we ussualy do from a 3000ft heigh and 6500ft long runaway in hot day, its impossible, we would need to t.o. on minimal fuel and land on a near longer sea level runaway, so if we can not T.O. we can not to land. its a practical appoach.

it is something like 350% of the dry runway number...

thanks for this data. do you know the respective dry runaway numbers for the GIV/G400/G450 ?

 

[sleepy]

Buy the 900EX, then the 7X. You will be very glad you did. The 7X will be one hell of an aircraft.

Yes, yes! It's a no-brainer, if you are going to buy the 7x, then get the 900EX Easy now. The Falcon has better flying qualities, better performance, and a nicer cabin. Our pilots that fly both (GV and DA-900) prefer the Falcon.

 

[Corona]

Again guys, help us to fly...

My boss has decided to abandon the plan of a mixed fleet (the midsize and the fractional on the GEx while we wait the delivery of the new 7x).

Now he plan to order a G450 or a Falcon 900EX Easy, after talking with the sales man, they offered a good position on the backlog, so the new bird will be delivered on about 11-13 months.

We know about the dispatch record of the Gulfs, also we charted a 900C and our impressions about both birds are excellent.

Also is impressive the Airborne Support of Gulfstream, but Dassalts customers also said they have the best and most flexible warranty (possible Dassault will offer an airborne support program).

The 900's burns very little fuel, has better avionics but a smaller cabin and costs 3 million more equipped with EVS.

The gulf is very reliable, roomier and handsome, but as a some operators commented, some items (not in the 900) requires frequent replacement, also the windshields are expensive, the hydraulic fluid is very corrosive, etc.

I knew here are some certified drivers on both planes.

What is your personal impression about the flying characteristics of each airplane?

Who is easier to fly?

Who is safer to land?

Who is easier (or practical) to maintain?

You could also look at the Embraer Legacy (nicknamed the WSCoD on this board). Apparently, according to at least one pilot here, it can do the job of a Gulfstream or Falcon and for a much lower price!

C

 

[2000flyer]

I see, so the 5X is speculation. Lets see, if they said go today the first deliveries would be about 2010. Whats a little lead time. Of course, the 7X is sold through about 2008-2009 so whats another year.

I'd bet a MINIMUM of 3-5 years before a "5X" announcement, 5-7 for deliveries. I believe it would be a great aircraft, no doubt, but DFJ has shown they'd rather cautiously enter a market rather than dive in and hope. If you question that, look back about 10 years or so, DFJ announced the Falcon 9000. Very...VERY similar to todays 7X, of course without the new wing, engines, EASy, etc. When they found there wasn't a market, they dropped it. Same for a SSTBJ. Sure, it will happen someday but not after years and years of careful consideration.

2000Flyer

 

[Flyinjunk]

Again guys, help us to fly...

My boss has decided to abandon the plan of a mixed fleet (the midsize and the fractional on the GEx while we wait the delivery of the new 7x).

Now he plan to order a G450 or a Falcon 900EX Easy, after talking with the sales man, they offered a good position on the backlog, so the new bird will be delivered on about 11-13 months.

We know about the dispatch record of the Gulfs, also we charted a 900C and our impressions about both birds are excellent.

Also is impressive the Airborne Support of Gulfstream, but Dassalts customers also said they have the best and most flexible warranty (possible Dassault will offer an airborne support program).

The 900's burns very little fuel, has better avionics but a smaller cabin and costs 3 million more equipped with EVS.

The gulf is very reliable, roomier and handsome, but as a some operators commented, some items (not in the 900) requires frequent replacement, also the windshields are expensive, the hydraulic fluid is very corrosive, etc.

I knew here are some certified drivers on both planes.

What is your personal impression about the flying characteristics of each airplane?

Who is easier to fly?

Who is safer to land?

Who is easier (or practical) to maintain?

My brother Go Gulfstream !
You have asked the wrong forum for advise. This one is filled with francophile dassault loving (&$&^(&%(&$(&$
GO GULFSTREAM.

 

[2000flyer]

This one is filled with francophile dassault loving (&$&^(&%(&$(&$GO GULFSTREAM.

I beg your pardon? What did you just call us???

 

[semperfido]

My brother Go Gulfstream !
You have asked the wrong forum for advise. This one is filled with francophile dassault loving (&$&^(&%(&$(&$
GO GULFSTREAM.

ggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg

 

[Flyinjunk]

I beg your pardon? What did you just call us???

Well big boy at least I didnt call ya shirley ;-0)

 

[Flyinjunk]

I need a drink

 

[GVFlyer]

...get the 900EX Easy now. The Falcon has better flying qualities, better performance, and a nicer cabin.

I was trying to stay out of this, but it's apparrent that an injection of facts is necessary in this dialog. All performance data - 8 pax, standard day, sea level where applicable.


Gulfstream G450/Falcon 900EX

Cabin: G450 - 40'4"L x 6'2" x 7'4" / F900 - 33'2" x 6'2" x 7'8"

Interior volume: G450 - 1,525 cu. ft. / F900 - 1,267 cu.ft.

Baggage volume: G450 - 169 cu.ft. / F900 - 127 cu. ft.

Max. T/O wt.: G450 - 74,600 lb. / F900 - 49,000 lb.

Max Ldg. wt.: G450 - 66,000 lb. / F900 - 44,500 lb.

Max. payload: G450 - 6,000 lb. / F900 - 4,615 lb.

Normal Cruise: G450 - M 0.80 / F900 - M 0.80

Long Range Cruise: G450 - M 0.80 / F900 - M 0.77

MMO (Mach): G450 - M 0.88 / F900 - M 0.84/0.87

Range at Normal Cruise: G450 - 4,350 nm. / F900 - 4,125 nm

Range at Long Range Cruise: G450 - 4,350 nm. / F900 - 4,263 nm.

T/O Dist. MGTOW: G450 - 5,450 ft. / F900 - 5,370 ft.

Ldg. Dist MLW: G450 - 3,260 ft. / F900 - 3,670 ft.

Initial Altitude: G450 - FL410 / F900 - FL390

Max. Alt.: G450 - FL450 @60K lbs (FL430@ 68K lbs) / F900 - FL510 @ ? Lbs

Engines:G450 - (2) Rolls-Royce Tay 611-8C / F900 - (3) Garrett TFE-731-60

Thrust rating ea.: G450 - 13,850 lbs. / F900 - 5,000 lbs.

TBO: G450 - 12,000 hours / F900 - 6,000 hours

Direct Operating Cost: G450 - $1,744 hr. / F900 $ 1,688 hr.

Price in millions: G450 - $33.50 / F900 - $34.65

Our pilots that fly both (GV and DA-900) prefer the Falcon.

De gustibus non est disputandum


GV







~

 

[Senior_Citizen]

... Lets see, if they said go today the first deliveries would be about 2010 ......
2000Flyer

Maybe, the 7X is sold to the 2008, if the "5X" is announced 2007 (a yr later the 7X cert) the 7X backlog could delay this plane to 2009, but it's possible a parallel product line, now the 900EX & DX are built on the same line, but the 900B was built on a different line, the 7X line is new, so the old 900C line still unused.

My source says the "5X" could be available also by 2008. after the "5X", Dassault will develop a twin engined 7X, to replace the 2000EX but this plane coulnd't fly until 2011, the 5X development requires only 8-11 months to acieve the papers, because is a minimal modification of the 7X but a twin engined variant could require more than 3 years to be certified. if developed, because Dassault also could upgrade the current 200EX with the 7X's engines and widshelds, retaining the wing, also integrating FBW to the 2000EX.

More Honeywell also anounces a replacemente engine for the TFE731 series, based on the AS907 developed for the CL300, more reliable, with less SFC, and compatible with current airframes, so will require only an STC to upgrade an AC.
That means another version of the 900EX/DX on the next 3 years.

Very interesting is the Bomardiers's position, with the new Thales Cockpit, the Globals could become the most advanced bizjets, also the G5000 has better field performance than any bizjet (with maybe the only exception of the Da-7X), but Bomardier requires to improve the support, also some quality issues.

To date we can't see a clear winner, the Falcons fly better, but the gulfs grants more satisfaction and less whorries,....

 

[Senior_Citizen]

I was trying to stay out of this, but it's apparrent that an injection of facts is necessary in this dialog. All performance data - 8 pax, standard day, sea level where applicable.


Gulfstream G450/Falcon 900EX
.
.
.
.

Price in millions: G450 - $33.50 / F900 - $34.65

GV

Thanks, we know this data.