Regional pilots and airlines can kiss my a$$

[a320drivr]

Only kidding. Just want to get your attention. Please explain this to me. Why hasnt every regional pilot left ALPA and formed a union for regional pilots and airlines. ALPA throws you guys under the bus. Their main concern is for mainline and in my opinion its a conflict of interest to represent the regional guys and mainline guys.
Anybody?

 

[lionflyer]

Only kidding. Just want to get your attention. Please explain this to me. Why hasnt every regional pilot left ALPA and formed a union for regional pilots and airlines. ALPA throws you guys under the bus. Their main concern is for mainline and in my opinion its a conflict of interest to represent the regional guys and mainline guys.
Anybody?

ALPA also throws junior mainline guys under the bus. Good flame though.

 

[greyskyracer]

I agree with you that it is a conflict of intrest, but I think that the regionals have the voting power since airways went usapa.

 

[DoinTime]

Only kidding. Just want to get your attention. Please explain this to me. Why hasnt every regional pilot left ALPA and formed a union for regional pilots and airlines. ALPA throws you guys under the bus. Their main concern is for mainline and in my opinion its a conflict of interest to represent the regional guys and mainline guys.
Anybody?

Care to elaborate on how we are "thrown under the bus" and what the "conflict of interest" is?

 

[a320drivr]

Care to elaborate on how we are "thrown under the bus" and what the "conflict of interest" is?

You must fly for Mesaba. Who do you think ALPA will look out for? Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots or NWA mainline pilots? You cant be that ignorant. Maybe if you belonged to a separate union the FO' s wouldnt be making $17 an hr because thats all ALPA said they could get.

 

[BobbyBiplane]

Regional pilots and airlines can kiss my a$$

and you can kiss my D$@&

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You must fly for Mesaba. Who do you think ALPA will look out for? Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots or NWA mainline pilots? You cant be that ignorant. Maybe if you belonged to a separate union the FO' s wouldnt be making $17 an hr because thats all ALPA said they could get.

Nope he doesn't work for XJ....

Why don't you answer your own original post by looking at this way... why haven't regional unions left?

Pinnacle recently recieved 2 million from ALPA. That two million didn't all come from PCL pilots...


Ok... how about his... why doesn't Rhode Island suceed from the Federal gov't?

 

[flyer172r]

Ok... how about his... why doesn't Rhode Island suceed from the Federal gov't?

Because nobody would take them seriously if they tried.

 

[DoinTime]

You must fly for Mesaba. Who do you think ALPA will look out for? Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots or NWA mainline pilots? You cant be that ignorant.

Look out for in what regard? A NW mainline new hire FO makes $5 hour more than our new hires in the CRJ-900. Every ALPA National resource that is available to mainline MECs is available to us.

Maybe if you belonged to a separate union the FO' s wouldnt be making $17 an hr because thats all ALPA said they could get.

If we belonged to a separate Union we would be paying 5% in dues and still have inferior resources.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Can I work today?

You must fly for Mesaba. Who do you think ALPA will look out for? Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots or NWA mainline pilots? You cant be that ignorant. Maybe if you belonged to a separate union the FO' s wouldnt be making $17 an hr because thats all ALPA said they could get.

Actually I think he's right, ALPA mainly only looks out for mainline, and particularly, the majors who pay ALPA's bills. This is evident how they treated the US Airways Express pilots during the Jets for Jobs (super seniority) issue, the whole reason for the RJDC lawsuit, and how ALPA threw the TWA pilots under the bus when they were courting AA and the total fiasco that happened with their seniority. It is a conflict of interest when ALPA is representing a mainline and a regional regarding who's gonna do what flying.

Having said all that, the only reason regionals are flying jets is because mainline gave away the farm. Look at the international market. An FO on an EM-145 in Europe STARTING SALARY is around $65k. A Captain STARTING SALARY is around $145k. Air Canada and European airlines have RJ's on the mainline property. Where it should be.

The reason they are not is because mainline pilots did not hold the line and gave it away, and screwed the whole industry up, and there were thousands upon thousands of young 20-somethings willing to do the job for absolutely nothing, and in fact many airlines (of which I believe PCL is the only one left?) miraculously saw those 20-somethings were so eager they would PAY to come work for them, and allowed those 20-somethings to PAY for their training.

I do not see things ever changing now, and mainlines will consolidate, 2nd tiers will go out of business as they can't compete with the majors who are actually just general contractors for the RJ whores except for long-haul and international, and over time, more and more mainline flying will be done by contract (whore) regionals.

There are many call signs that will probably go extinct in the next 12 to 24 months, and all of those pilots - all highly qualified big-iron pilots with 5-digit numbers for total time, will be standing in front of the chain linked gate fighting for the front row as the chief pilot walks out and looks for the guys with the most amount of logbooks under his arm. He will look down at his clip board, see he needs "four" today, and then pick out 4 of the most hungry-looking ex-mainline pilots and say "you.... You... You.... and... You." Then his foremen will unlock the chains holding the gate and they will brace themselves and barely let just those 4 picked pilots through the gate, Tell them to sign a training agreement, tell them "You'll make $21 per hour. Upgrades are slow, you'll sit reserve for a year and you might upgrade in 5 years." The four will eagerly say "yes, sir, whatever you say, sir" and follow him inside, grumbling internally at the humiliation of it all, while all the other pilots not selected push trying to get in or in position for the next time the chief pilot and his clip board may show up.

You can point the finger at the regional whores all you want, but it all began when Eve ate the apple, and the pilots sinned against themselves and allowed regionals to fly jets. Now, we ALL get to reap what they sewed.

Oh, yeah. And then to add insult to injury, they allowed Age 65 to happen. This should have been fought with every friggin' dollar ALPA had. But of course the top 10% of each major saw the extra dollar signs, and ALPA is governed by THOSE pilots.

Pilots dog Mesa, or GoJet, which is where I'm now at since being laid off from Flight Options. That's fine. Dog us all you want, but Mesa and GoJet are the result of decades of individual pilots, under the guise of "ALPA", not caring about anything but themselves and their immediate and short-term needs for THEIR jobs, and THEIR contracts, and shrewd businessment who saw the opportunity that there ARE thousands of 20-somethings that will fly for free, and formed these airlines, easily beating the other regionals. Then, those pilots unionize and are part of the same organization, when in fact, they did nothing when they were formed, than what Comair, Mesaba, or SkyWest did when THEY were formed - bid and stole mainline flying from the majors. Only now the regionals at those older carriers see the NEW regionals as the thieves. It's comical and sad at the same time.

Sure, some pilots at certain regionals think their sh! t don't stink and that "they raised the bar", and they probably did, but at what expense? People say I shouldn't have gone to GoJet. Well, you shouldn't have gone to ComAir, or Colgan, or SkyWest.

If NO pilot flew for an RJ they would be on mainline property. ALL RJ operators in the U.S. are WHORE operators. A pilot at ComAir or SkyWest is just as guilty as any Mesa or GoJet pilot.

20,000 airline pilots on the street, and that number could easily double in the next 24 months, especially if one of the BIG ones closes their doors. Impossible? Where is Eastern? Where is Pan Am? US Air (the real one, not the 2nd tier with the new name)? TWA? It IS possible.

GoJet and Mesa are now hiring ex-mainline and 2nd tier pilots with 10 or more years flying Boeings. The competition is already very high. Net Jets is THE best place to put an application in the United States now, and every mainline pilot is doing it, but without a corporate airplane type, it is getting very difficult to get on, there. International jobs are out there, if you can handle and pass the ridiculous physicals and tests that make our ATP and airline application exams look like kindergarten quizes, and are willing to either relocate and live out of the country, or forget seeing any family except a few days a year.

All because mainline voted away their scope and allowed jets at the regionals.

What's done is done. We have to live with it and make the most out of it. In my opinion, what we need for regionals is a RALPA, but I certainly do not see how that will ever happen, as every regional is a scavenger sitting on their heels while the big predator eats his meal and feeds his mainline pilots. Then what's left the airline owner lets the scavengers fight for the scraps and the company with the lowest cost is gonna get the scraps.

Regional pilots state that the pilots should hold the line, should NOT work at airlines like Mesa, GoJet, Compass, Freedom. Well, TSA just did that and look what it got them. The courts are not on their side. ALPA National did crap for them. They are going to lose the AA flying, and the USAirways Express jets could be gone, too. And ALPA will sit there, and watch it happen. They petitioned and lost both in court and with the NMB for single-carrier status, which now makes them and all their jobs extremely vulnerable, and there is nothing anyone can or will do about it. American Eagle is going to be in real trouble, as as soon as AA gives Eagle's jets TSA stole back to them, they are going to try to sell Eagle off as soon as possible, and then there will be more regional airline scrap wars for the AA flying, and EVERY regional is going to fight for it.

The majors have the regionals by the balls and they will constantly all be whipsawed against each other. The only way to survive is for the holding companies to diversify and fly for as many different mainlines as possible. There is only so many RJ flights possible in the U.S. ALPA does not have the strength nor the desire at the regional level to plug all the holes in the dam, and the flying will maneuver around between all the regional airlines as they all fight for the flying.

All regional flying was stolen from another regional, and the stealing has only just begun. Just watch what happens the next 24 months.

All regional pilots are whores, and it's mainline's fault, and now the mainline pilots on indefinite furlough, if they want to fly for a living, will have to replace their own light bulb with a red one, or go fight in line for a job at Home Depot, which is not hiring because they all are full of furloughed airline pilots already (and make more money than a regional pilot).

Flame away. You're a whore. Let's see how you think your whoring is better than mine. Your light isn't any less red than mine. And if you are in the bottom 50% of ANY mainline pilot seniority list, you might go buy a red light before home depot sells out, because it's just a matter of time and YOU will be a whore too, flying for a regional, because YOUR airline gave away the scope - but they got their retirement, and their job wasn't a factor. That's ALPA. Can't live without them, can't shoot them.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Actually I think he's right, ALPA mainly only looks out for mainline, and particularly, the majors who pay ALPA's bills. .

funny... recently... the mainline guys are complaining that ALPA is becomming a regional union...

 

[ePilot22]

Wait a minute...

Actually I think he's right, ALPA mainly only looks out for mainline, and particularly, the majors who pay ALPA's bills. This is evident how they treated the US Airways Express pilots during the Jets for Jobs (super seniority) issue....blah, blah, blah...because it's just a matter of time and YOU will be a whore too.

Just remember my regional IS better than yours!







eP.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

funny... recently... the mainline guys are complaining that ALPA is becomming a regional union...

Why do you think they want to tax your 401(k) now? They are losing income in drastic amounts because the jobs are going away from the mainlines and to the regionals.

It's entirely possible that there could be just as many regional pilots flying for who knows how many different "united express", "delta connection", US Airways express", Northwest Airlink", yadda yadda yadda as there are mainline pilots.

HUGE difference in the dues being paid though. For that reason, there will always be a conflict, and is why ALPA will NEVER see "one union", and "for the betterment of the mainline" every single regional ALPA pilots' job is expendable. Makes ya feel all special sendin' that check in, doesn't it, considering 75% of it goes to ALPA National and only 25% of it goes to your own Union.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Just remember my regional IS better than yours!

eP.

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you, your mouth must be full of mainline D?@K and the red light on your porch glared, and I couldn't read what you said.

Your airline just charges more per john than mine does, which is why you're not hiring, and we are, btw.

So yeah. Your airline is better than mine. Today.


I'm not saying I condone the practices of the industry, but that's what it is. And it's only going to get much worse unfortunately, and THAT sucks. ;-(

If only those mainline pilots hadn't given away the scope.

 

[wacoflyr]

I'll never work for a regional again. How any of you can put up with the horsesh!t that goes on there is beyond me. Pilots used to be upper-middle class. Executives, few of whom fly, have beaten the profession down below the level of a competent electrician, or a decent plumber. In this country, it is no longer a wise thing to hitch one's star to a large company, as management now views labor as a resource to be exploited as much as possible, instead of the stakeholders that we are.


Waco

 

[JustaNumber]

Options Slave,

Interesting post, and for the most part, true. There are some intricacies and nuances to the regional hiring situation that you have missed, though. Yes, I understand and can empathize with anyone hired at the less desirable regionals in the last few months, as any flying job beats rapidly losing currency in a dead market.

There is a big difference, though, between someone hired in the last few months at Mesa or Gojets, and someone hired at those places during the last few years when airline jobs were plentiful. To not apply at a well-paid regional and go directly to the bottom-feeders shows ignorance at best and industry-damaging-short-sightedness at worst. Gojets was specifically created to shaft the TSA guys, and to take a job there when others were readily available was a slap in the face of every TSA pilot. Mesa pilots have been flying under a criminally deficient contract, and to allow such an airline to continue to function by purposefully seeking employment there, especially when many other jobs were plentiful, in my view was intentionally damaging to the industry by people who didn't give a damn what the effects would be.

So yes, we are all whores in some respects, but some are worse than others. It is human nature to look out for number one, but especially when lots of choices are available, you have a responsibility to look at the big picture.

 

[DrewBlows]

W

HUGE difference in the dues being paid though. For that reason, there will always be a conflict, and is why ALPA will NEVER see "one union", and "for the betterment of the mainline" every single regional ALPA pilots' job is expendable. Makes ya feel all special sendin' that check in, doesn't it, considering 75% of it goes to ALPA National and only 25% of it goes to your own Union.

This is 100% wrong. Mainline ALPA carriers have always subsidized the regionals and likely always will. It's pretty simple, mainline companies have more pilots making more money, so when Pinnacle, or ASA, or Comair get one million for this or two million for that it's the mainline carriers footing the bill.

 

[bigshooter107]

MESA SUCKS! was i the first?

 

[ASACRJFlyer]

If it makes you feel better...

Slave,

As was pointed out in an earlier post, while we may all be "whores", some whores are "sluttier" than others. GoJet falls into that superslut category, as it was specifically created to screw the TSA pilots. We pilots are our own worst enemy but you've got to decide whose side you're on. Airlines can't get off the ground without pilots and if we as pilots had simply refused to work for GoJets, they would have quietly disappeared. But no, unfortunately, there are those who fail to see the bigger picture, and think, "I'm getting mine, screw everyone else." You talked about those senior mainline pilots who screwed us all by giving the RJ's to the regionals and about how selfish they were. I agree, they were selfish and short sighted, but how is going to work for an airline like GoJets, formed specifically to undercut a group of pilots, any different? Are you seeing a little bit of yourself when you look at those selfish senior mainline pilots? You should...

You can take that fatalistic, selfish and ignorant attitude that what you do as an individual doesn't matter, but it's the attitude and actions of you and people like you that have gotten us to where we are today. I know that my view may not be realistic, that if we all take the higher road, things will all work out. There are always going to be pilots ready to undercut their brethren for their own best interest. That whole scab argument of I've got a family to feed doesn't fly. We've all got families to feed so using the excuse of "I've got to get mine" to undercut someone else just shows how selfish and shortsighted that argument is, whether it's mainline pilots over decade ago or GoJets pilots today.

 

[ePilot22]

Dude...

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you, your mouth must be full of mainline D?@K and the red light on your porch glared, and I couldn't read what you said.

Your airline just charges more per john than mine does, which is why you're not hiring, and we are, btw.

So yeah. Your airline is better than mine. Today.

Relax, Killer.

After your summary of the FI regional forum posts from the last year you've been on here, I was just pointing out that you forgot the classic "my regional is better than your regional" mentality.

As for being a whore, it certainly takes one to know one. :beer: to your career on your hands and knees.





eP.