Regional Jet Economics - Mike Boyd

[KingAirKiddo]

That makes ZERO sense when you have cheaper alternatives like CHQ, Skyway and Mesa out there. Skywest has contributed to lower wages at the regionals too by flying the CR7 at CRJ-200 rates. DAL management will do "apples to apples" comparisons for both mainline and the regionals. The mainline costs will be negotiated downward and the regional rates will need to be addressed too - that is how managment will view things. They haven't forgotten about the Comair strike and how much it cost them... DAL management will not GROW its regional operations at a higher cost base when there are cheaper alternatives out there like CHQ which has already proven itself as a capable partner...

Do you honestly think DAL management will LEAVE MONEY ON THE TABLE and not demand that the regionals reduce their rates during this "pre-bankruptcy" time period? Everyone's wages are at risk and the CRJ role in a LCC environment will likely be altered significantly (Grinstein apparently is not a big fan of the RJ). That's the reality of the situation...

Heavy Set,

I agree with you...it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE when there are cheaper alternatives such as some of the carriers you mentioned. Again, my contention is not that we are overpaid, but that they are UNDERPAID (and as a result are an instrumental part of the whipsaw currently in place at DAL and other carriers).

Ironically, I think that many pilots at some of the "non-career" regionals agree to such horrible pay in order to gain growth and move on after they get the coveted 1000 turbine PIC. The problem with the "shi#y pay for upgrade" mindset is that there are FEWER and FEWER major airline jobs to move on to due to mainline service being farmed out to the cheapest regional carrier. The "B" scale at the regionals is more of a factor in the industry-wide spiral than what people realize. Again, the single best way to preserve present and future mainline jobs is for all regional airline pilots to make more money.

Now, as to the present situation at DAL. Yes, I am well aware that should DAL enter Chapter 11, we at the wholly-owned subsidiaries are going to be hurting as well. But until that happens, we are not going to voluntarily give up anything (and mainline pilots should not be advocating us giving up anything if they want to protect their own futures).

I'm off to bed now...

KAK

 

[climbhappy]

quote: there are fewer and fewer mainline airline jobs to move on to.........

kind of makes me think of a rush hour trafffic jam!........then the next thing you know...everybody is pissed off and not wanting to let people cut in from the left lane in a construction zone( i.e. PFT).
........you creep along then hopefully at some point you start moving along again.

question: i'm told people don't want to pay more than a 100 to 150 per segment regionally and 300 to 350 coast to coast. jetblue and southwest have lowered the bar to this level. if this then becomes the price most(not all) people are willing to pay, then how do you fit the RJ economics into the picture and what would the cost per ticket for a fifty seater be?

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

AFELLOWAVIATOR,
"full of it" I think may be going a bit too far toward a personal attack. The General pretty much stays away from anything like that, unlike many of his co-workers - mine too for that matter. It might be a lack of the facts or possibly ignoring in some cases. As much as most of us are pretty passionate about our jobs and job security, we all need to step away from the keyboard and try to find the big picture. Some interesting things came out of the shareholders meeting and I hope it is available to all to read at some point. Some posters here are convinced that DAL pays for EVERTHING at ASA/CMR. 'Fraid not. Example, TOC maint on engines, CONTRACT. Which money is paid to DAL from ASA. Most everything else also. This from DB himself at the lounge on fri...Yes, I had a donut. Ok, two.
Sigh..this shiite needs to be worked out soon or we all are going to be putting on the life jackets....

I wonder how things would be going if all three pilot groups were on the same page...no, I did not say list, page.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I wonder how things would be going if all three pilot groups were on the same page...no, I did not say list, page.

I think all three groups are on the same page. The problem is that only one of the three groups is empowered by ALPA to negotiate with management. The other two groups are excluded.

The issue of DCI whipsaw is not very important to the party that "owns" all Delta flying (according to ALPA) so nothing gets accomplished.

One list provides one MEC and one group of pilots who has their priorities represented. The Delta MEC is on record as supporting the Comair and ASA MECs' position on DCI scope, but a letter of support is far from actually caring about the fate of DCI pilots. ( Hint: It isn't the Delta MEC's job to care about ASA & Comair )

Their job is to secure positions for their Delta pilot bretheren. A lot of envious glances are cast towards our CRJ700's. Even though we are on the same page, Connection priorities do not matter to the Delta MEC and in fact, the Delta MEC would like to simply take ASA and Comair pilot slots if it were not for that pesky RJDC thwarting their dreams of jets for jobs on the property.

So, getting on the same page is not enough.

For this to be resolved for the benefit of ALPA members the union has two options:
(1) Merger - All Delta flying done by Delta pilots. Perfect scope, perfect job security and all the representational problems are repaired. Unfortunately the Delta MEC killed this option for political gain, but left the door open to revisit the issue ( probably for a jets for jobs option )
(2) Keep us separate, but allow the "express" carriers the ability to represent their pilots to their real employer. This means ALPA would have to provide a system to formally resolve differences between the MEC's.

The RJDC is on track to achieve option 2 at Court. I think it is likely that the Delta MEC would wake up and decide option 1 is better than option 2 and request a merger ( since that would give them all the jobs, all the flying and all the votes ).

But I'm not that sure of Delta's future and the annual meeting gave me no more reason to be hopeful. We can expect Contract 2005 will try to use small jet bargaining to enhance mainline's position ( while the small jet pilots are excluded from the negotiations ).

~~~^~~~

 

[~~~^~~~]

question: i'm told people don't want to pay more than a 100 to 150 per segment regionally and 300 to 350 coast to coast. jetblue and southwest have lowered the bar to this level. if this then becomes the price most(not all) people are willing to pay, then how do you fit the RJ economics into the picture and what would the cost per ticket for a fifty seater be?

50 seat RJ's cost, with crew, fuel, financing and all variable costs around $1,500 an hour to operate. None of them have coast to coast range, but you can play with block times to see what you come up with.

The General is correct, as is Boyd and everyone else. Every airplane has a limited market.

But, when you consider the costs for the 70 seat RJ the market expands considerably. The numbers for the E170 and E190 are even better. Airtran published their opinion that it did not cost them much more to operate a 717 than it did a CRJ200 - so you can see where the "sweet spot" is beginning to form.

The big conflict in our industry will be the 70 seat to 115 seat market. Yes, the 50 seat market is saturated and probably on its way to being unprofitable. Yet Delta just bought some more becasue that is all they can buy under Contract 2000 scope restrictions.

And of course the 7E7 will shake things up some more. It looks to be a replacement for everything from 757's to MD-11's going over water and perhaps will allow companies like Jet Blue to go international.

Delta's RJ700, 737-800, 75/767 and 777 fleet plan looked like a good idea and still does. Of course, now they don't have the money for it and we will see what Grinstein says in July.

~~~^~~~

 

[General Lee]

Fins,

It has moved to AUG now according to Grinstein. And, the plan better favor Dalpa if Grinstein ever wants the plan to go forward.(to pass a large TA vote) He gave a lot of "fluff" in his CVG meeting---with grandiose plans that included more West Coast flying, Asia (if SARS doesn't return), and Song on the West Coast too. (expanded Song use--another 17 757s was mentioned) I don't know if he said anything about extra CR7s, though. Maybe those could replace the current CRJs---but it is highly doubtful that we would give up 30% of our pay for more RJs---just like you wouldn't give up 30% of your pay to buy 717s for mainline use. Also, it seems like you really don't need a lot of money to make huge aircraft orders---look at USAir---they ordered $4.5 billion worth of RJs (bad plan again) in Chap 11. It will be interesting to see what the plan is in AUG......(or SEP, or NOV.....)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Heavy Set]

70 seaters are more favorable than 50 seaters in LCC or even mid-sized markets because of the ability to spread costs over more seats and see some profit potential. That being said, the CRJ-700 is just as uncomfortable, IMHO, as the CRJ-200. It's cramped - not ideal for business passengers. Given the choice, most passengers would likely avoid it in a LCC environment vs. a 737-300/700 or a 717. I am not sure that throwing more CR7s into the mix is really the answer - although they are better and more capable aircraft than the CRJ-200s. Air Canada ordered more EMB-190s than CR7s recently - to the embarrassment of the Canadian Government - because of both comfort and # of seats factors (and probably some creative financing).

Delta clearly needs to develop a 100-seater plan fast. AirTran's decision to jettison the CRJ from its operation opened a lot of eyes to the reality of the situation - from an economical and comfort level, THE CRJ DOES NOT WORK as well as most people predicted... Why operate a CRJ-200 on LCC or mid-sized routes with low fares and leave money on the table? Doesn't make much sense...

 

[aewanabe]

I don't know why I can't leave this dog alone, but here goes.... Those of you who bring up the CHQ pilot salaries (Heavy Set) as a stick to beat the Comair pilots with are missing a valuable point.

There are two reasons that most impartial observers believe CHQ continues to grow within DCI. #1, (listen closely) the Embraer airframe is a cheaper product both to purchase and operate than the CRJ. That is the original reason CHQ got into MCO, because the ERJ-135 is a true 37-seat airframe and the 44-seat CRJ isn't. And now that we're here (as one of the step-children in the big, happy DCI family) mamma widget is happy with us OPERATIONALLY. CHQ came late to the ERJ game (our oldest airframe was delivered in 1999), and spent a couple years watching what Express Jet and Eagle learned breaking the airplane in. As a result, we've had pretty good luck operating the airplane; for example all of our airframe are LRs (except a couple bastardized MPs we got from Europe last year), and all now have the A1P engine. My friends at Express Jet tell me they still have to wrestle with the loading and performance issues on ERs; the LR is a much improved airplane.

#2, is that Delta is now addicted to the whipsaw. Our union did studies during our contract negotiations that basically said that we could all make Comair + 10% and still beat Comair's DOCs. So why didn't we insist on that? Why did we decide to underbid everyone and sell-out the industry, you ask? We weren't looking to take flying from Comair... that was coming our way regardless. We were trying to save our asses from Freedom II (Republic). We fought for iron-clad scope, not within a brand (since we don't "own" any brands) but to keep our own parent company from using its resources against us. And in the process we got some pretty decent raises, better QOL all the way around, and the good stuff that was already in our old contract was preserved. So I voted yes, and I'm pretty proud of what we accomplished. That being said, the pay still needs improvement. I fully admit that. But if Delta wanted to shift all the flying to the lowest bidder, why didn't we get all 45 airplanes in the RFP? I think Delta feels it's in their best interest to keep the portfolio as broad and loose as possible. (That's why something like 30 percent of the MCO daily departures are still on Comair, and why we are in every hub now except ATL and SLC).

Finally, those of you that keep saying CHQ is not a "career" airline and we're all going for our 1000 PIC and getting out are seriously over-generalizing. I'd say that at least 30 percent of our current group plans on being lifers for various reasons, and that percentage keeps growing. I'm one who would really like to move on in a few years, but there are no guarantees that will ever happen. So while I'm here I'll do everything to make CHQ somewhere that could be a "career" destination. The vast majority of my co-workers feel the same way.

 

[aewanabe]

Got tired of typing on the last response, sorry it's so long-winded. My last point is that I fully agree with KAK... Comair is NOT overpaid, and we need to do everything we can to bring our pay closer to their levels. And the guys who tell them "take pay-cuts or no more growth" are definitely missing the mark. What good is growth if you can't eat? And WHY in the world would any mainline guy want the regional product to get cheaper? The next thing you know we'll be flying the EMB-290 with 200 seats, with Captains making 120 an hour and FOs 40 or so, just because it was made my Embraer. Screw that.

 

[Heavy Set]

Both the ERJ and CRJ are good airplanes that need to be used selectively - that's the point. You shouldn't use a 50-seat RJ on an LCC route where fares will generally be lower because you can't spread the costs well over 50 seats and profit potential is very low. That's the point of my posts. CRJs/ERJs make sense on routes like Salt Lake - Pasco or DFW - Mobile because zero LCC competiton currently exists on those routes and you can actually charge a premium to cover costs and eek out a profit.

I am not a Delta employee but I understand that DAL management will likely whipsaw the regionals in order to reduce costs and increase profits. It is very likely that any future growth will go to lower-cost providers - why should it pay more for the same product when cheaper alternatives (and willing partners like CHQ) are available?

I never said CHQ wouldn't be a great place to be - its pilots will likely have short upgrade times given its future growth prospects with Delta...

 

[aewanabe]

Actuall, Heavy Set my comment about CHQ being a "career" airline was directed at KAK (who happens to be a friend of mine). My major contention with your posts is that I don't think the difference in pilot salaries is the primary driving factor in CHQ's growth in the DCI system. (Note that I didn't say it's not a factor). I truly want to bring out salaries up to Comair's, NOT bring their salaries down to ours.

Your comment about CHQ being a great place to be because of the growth kinda proves my point. There are a lot of great things here other than the growth, and we need to keep working to make it better. I'm not short-sighted enough to believe the growth will continue indefinitely, and DEFINITELY don't believe that LUV, Airtran, Jet Blue or the others will be calling the day I hit 1001 Jet PIC. After all, our 4 code-share partners are US, DL, AA and UA. That's a who's who list of the legacy carriers that have the biggest challenges in front of them. If the music stops at any one of those places I'll be worrying about keeping my job, not studying for upgrade.

I also think that a lot of the DCI guys miss one other point about why contract carriers exist (after all ACA and AWAC are also currently in that dreaded category, and are in the top echelon salary-wise). We exist because we can buy and maintain the airplanes when the parent carrier does not want to, or cannot. Notice how the US wholly-owned guys have (sort of) stopped screaming about us? Maybe their vocal cords just got tired, or maybe they realized a truth about US: USAirways Group has almost zero ability to finance airplanes right now, where Wexford (for example) can. (BTW I fully agree that US Group wholly-boned pilots got screwed in the late 90s when Group still had money to buy airplanes, but now it's pretty much a moot point). I think that Delta is in the current position of not wanting to own many more RJs, and may be rapidly reaching the point where they'll be unable to finance them at any rate.

 

[aewanabe]

I also happen to agree that an RJ vs. a 737 or 717 is a losing proposition if you can fill the bigger plane. I cringe when I do a flight from, for example PIT-MSP in an oversold ERJ, and then watch US fly 737s from CLT-GSO or ILM that are half-empty.

 

[CatYaaak]

Clearly, Delta needs to reduce its employee costs (all employee groups need to contribute - not just the sole union).

Heavy, you and Genera never fail to add the "all employee groups need to contribute" qualifier at any admission that the pilots need to take concessions. No wonder they call the new airline-within-an-airline thingy Song, because you all keep playing the same one-note tune. Do you honestly feel you have the right to dictate that someone making 30K or less a year at the ticket counter take the SAME percentage cut that dime-a-dozen quarter million $+ captains do? You harp and whine about the the fact that they aren't union employees...so why do you keep pretending you can negotiate their salaries for them?

When you bring up the fact that you are the only "unionized" employee group, are you trying to imply that there's a grand conspiracy to pick on you? Guess what?....when company belt tightening occurs, the highest paid will be the biggest target, and I could throw a brick down any Hartsfield terminal and hit at least 10 Delta F/Os making 150K+ in the head.

Why would management, who's job it is to run the WHOLE company, destroy the morale and force a mass exodus of thousands of CSRs, ground handlers, agents etc. by putting them well below Earned Income Credit wages just so you can make $250,000 per year, instead of say, the measly sum of $220,000? They know YOU aren't going to quit even if you took a hit of 40%.

Now, I know that when you're locked up in the cockpit driving the bus you begin to believe that if ONLY you could get rid of all management, ground personnel, and res agents and replace them all with kiosks, internet access, and pilot armchair management Generals the world would be rosy for you and everyone would be making CEO wages for life. Robots could load your baggage and passengers would be happy to know you're making more than the President of the United States even though they never see you. After all, you put in those punishing 75-hour work months.

But why don't you just have the guts to come out and say what you're really thinking? You shouldn't take cuts. ever. In fact, you think you deserve RAISES...because...you know...you're the pilots! Go ahead and ask for them...tell everyone to work for minimum wage because ....yes....you're the pilots and therefore the most important people inthe company it revolves around you blah blah nobody has highly trained skills like you blah blah. It's all about you! Buy new equipment?....nah....pay for higher fuel?....nah.....update terminals?.....nah......hire more CSR to deal with pax and reduce lines, hassles, and reduce the general horror of what is ariline flying?....nah! He11, you don't need anyone.

But whatever you do, please stop this facade of "willingness" used as nothing more than a lead-in for trying to insist what others should make or as you put it...."contribute"... in your company. Jeez, you'd think you were slaving away in a coal mine. You make big money in a big company that's lost billions. Quit whining about the paltry sums others are making and suck it up.

 

[bvt1151]

If Comair and ASA need to take concessions along with the mainline pilots, then the CHQ and Skywest contracts also need to be reopened...or dumped. Both Comair and ASA can do it cheaper than CHQ and SKYW due to the profit that is returned to the airline. Skywest brought in a 12% profit margin...that was all paid by Delta, UAL, or CAL...which is not the case with CMR or ASA.

The ERJ runs cheaper than the CRJ, but those costs are offest by the enormous amount CRJ's Comair and ASA have. Not to mention rumor has it the CRJ will last about twice as long as the ERJ.

CHQ's operating performance is the biggest fraud since Frank Abignale. They finally got caught in MCO last year, but now are back to their old ways...even calling in padded times off the gate in CVG. Exceptions is getting a little perturbed about saving the gates for you and have you lie about the times, only then see you get more Delta-flavored jungle jets parked at our hubs.

If the ACARS rumor is true, Comair will be at an evern greater disadvantage to CHQ in the on-time department. The kicker is, there is no real difference in on-time performance, just a change in who reports it (and whether or not they tell the truth).

Ever wonder why AE chronically has the worst on-time? ACARS.

Delta knows it, too. He11, they were the ones who caught CHQ in MCO, but they love it none-the-less since it looks better to their passengers. So nothing gets done. Until something gets done, we'll be forced to read posts from arrogant CHQ pilots who really think they're better than the rest.

I believe (stress the word believe because I'm probably wrong) that DCI is using CHQ to try and piss of CMR. They've moved them into CVG for no other reason than to twist the knife. Butrell is still trying to get Comair and ASA's pilot costs down for what seems like a larger airframe. Comair Operates the 70's at about $1250 per block hour. Horizon, who I don't believe flies any CRJ-200's operates their 70's at $1800 per bh. Delta, who operates no CL-65's can expect a block hour cost comparable to Horizons, even if the crew costs are the same as Comair's. I'm not saying it should happen, necessarily, but that it probably will.

But I digress...A CRJ can go against a 717, very successfully, I might add. If there are 90 people going from A to B, one 717 will carry those 90 people, but two RJ's will carry the 90 people and generate another 10 from the increased frequency. You can be assured that those extra 10 will generate a healthy yield.
Its the same reason Delta doesn't fly a 777 one time a day between CVG and DTW. Instead there are 10 RJ's.
It's called the frequency S-Curve and it is very real.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Finally, those of you that keep saying CHQ is not a "career" airline and we're all going for our 1000 PIC and getting out are seriously over-generalizing. I'd say that at least 30 percent of our current group plans on being lifers for various reasons, and that percentage keeps growing. I'm one who would really like to move on in a few years, but there are no guarantees that will ever happen. So while I'm here I'll do everything to make CHQ somewhere that could be a "career" destination. The vast majority of my co-workers feel the same way.

aewanabe,

No, I don't think you are ALL going for your 1000 PIC; that WOULD be an oversimplification of a very complex issue. However, I do feel there is a contingent within any pilot group that will capitalize on any opportunity to get ahead at any cost. The idiots that went to Freedom are a prime example. Ornstein's abuse of his Mesa Air Group pilots created a premise which was ultimately used against your pilot group with the whole Republic fiasco. I do not dispute that the pilot groups at Mesa and Chautauqua had their backs against the wall during their recent contract negotiations. What I would like you to realize, though, is that the resulting contracts you guys signed have now made you OUR Freedom and Republic. Our management constantly compares our contract to the one at Mesa, Chautauqua, Mesaba, Pinnacle, etc. I'm not blaming you personally, but what I am saying is that we ALL need to hold our ground during negotiations (and prevent those within our ranks from becoming Freedom-ites through education about how opportunistic thinking ultimately places downward pressure across the entire industry). We need to all "be on the same page" to prevent such failures in our unified front in the future.

Again, my posts were not meant as a catalyst to bash pilots at airline "X" (although I did cite Chautauqua since it is one of the DCI carriers which we are so lovingly compared to by our own and DCI management). Instead, it was to reinforce the point that the best way to preserve mainline jobs is to have an equitable regional payscale across the board that prevents a massive farming out of mainline flying to the lowest regional bidder.

(Plus I'm just a little bit bored after all my leisure time this week...glad I get to go back to work tomorrow )

Take it easy...

KAK

 

[aewanabe]

The ERJ runs cheaper than the CRJ, but those costs are offest by the enormous amount CRJ's Comair and ASA have. Not to mention rumor has it the CRJ will last about twice as long as the ERJ.



CHQ's operating performance is the biggest fraud since Frank Abignale. They finally got caught in MCO last year, but now are back to their old ways...even calling in padded times off the gate in CVG. Exceptions is getting a little perturbed about saving the gates for you and have you lie about the times, only then see you get more Delta-flavored jungle jets parked at our hubs.



If the ACARS rumor is true, Comair will be at an evern greater disadvantage to CHQ in the on-time department. The kicker is, there is no real difference in on-time performance, just a change in who reports it (and whether or not they tell the truth).



Delta knows it, too. He11, they were the ones who caught CHQ in MCO, but they love it none-the-less since it looks better to their passengers. So nothing gets done. Until something gets done, we'll be forced to read posts from arrogant CHQ pilots who really think they're better than the rest.


I believe (stress the word believe because I'm probably wrong) that DCI is using CHQ to try and piss of CMR. They've moved them into CVG for no other reason than to twist the knife. Butrell is still trying to get Comair and ASA's pilot costs down for what seems like a larger airframe. Comair Operates the 70's at about $1250 per block hour. Horizon, who I don't believe flies any CRJ-200's operates their 70's at $1800 per bh. Delta, who operates no CL-65's can expect a block hour cost comparable to Horizons, even if the crew costs are the same as Comair's. I'm not saying it should happen, necessarily, but that it probably will.



But I digress...A CRJ can go against a 717, very successfully, I might add. If there are 90 people going from A to B, one 717 will carry those 90 people, but two RJ's will carry the 90 people and generate another 10 from the increased frequency. You can be assured that those extra 10 will generate a healthy yield.
Its the same reason Delta doesn't fly a 777 one time a day between CVG and DTW. Instead there are 10 RJ's.
It's called the frequency S-Curve and it is very real. [/B]

Uh, if you have twice as many airplanes that cost more to purchase and operate, then the incremental costs are increased, not diluted by the fleet numbers. The ERJ is derived from a dedicated airliner, the CRJ from a business jet. No-one knows how long they'll last yet, so let's not speculate on that front. Funny, the memo from our chief pilot said to double-check our times with dispatch since Delta had caught COMAIR station agents calling us off late when we weren't. This issue will be he-said she-said until everyone has ACARS. (BTW we will on our UEX planes). So you're saying Comair pilots are currently falsifying their times to keep up? Whose posts here were arrogant? I said I think you guys should keep your pay, we need to raise ours, and I pointed out the difference in operating costs. How the hell was that arrogant? And I sure as didn't say we're better than the rest. I merely said ma Delta likes our operational performance. Never did I compare it to yours; you did that all on your own. Hey, we actually agree on something. I fully believe that Delta's strategy is to have every hub as swirled as possible, although I don't necessarily think they're doing that solely to piss you off.

BVT you're really starting to piss me off. The vast majority of the Comair pilots on here can make arguments about the issue without resorting to half-quotes and lies. You seem to have a special talent for shooting your mouth off. And you never miss a chance to call CHQ arrogant.... whatsa matter, did you get turned down at an interview? BTW I noticed you're pretty low-time for a Comair pilot. Looks to me like you got hired AFTER the summer of 2001, which means you really have no place to brag about your great contract since you weren't around to work for it. Have a nice day.

 

[aewanabe]

Hey, KAK missed your response while I was formatting my long-winded reply to your shiny happy colleague BVT. I know you're specific example wasn't meant to bash; it's an generalization that gets over-used by a LOT of people (you just had the most recent post to quote)

Since I tend to ramble I'll try to keep this one short. I think we did as good a job as we could with our current contract. I agree that the next one has got to be better in the pay department. I fully support your pay levels and want ours to come up, NOT yours to come down. And I think our growth within the whipsaw known as DCI is attributable to Delta's desire to have many different options, AND our good operational performance. (Note to BVT. Once again, I never said it was better than yours. Just that it's good.)

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Fair enough...see you next weekend. Let's round up some of the usual suspects for some golf if you're in town...

KAK

 

[bvt1151]

Uh, if you have twice as many airplanes that cost more to purchase and operate, then the incremental costs are increased, not diluted by the fleet numbers. The ERJ is derived from a dedicated airliner, the CRJ from a business jet.

Perhaps you haven't heard of the term "economy of scale." It says the more of an aircraft type you have, the cheaper it is to operate *, not more expensive as you are arguing. Basic economics.

*see Southwest Airlines

Funny, the memo from our chief pilot said to double-check our times with dispatch since Delta had caught COMAIR station agents calling us off late when we weren't. This issue will be he-said she-said until everyone has ACARS. (BTW we will on our UEX planes).

Comair ramp agents are paid for every on-time departure. Its their performance initiative, which makes it very hard to believe they are calling in times later than actual. In fact there are several times we have to adjust our times because the station calls it on-time when it shouldn't have been, and CVG wonders why we've arrived late. ATL is notorious with this as well. Our times out of CVG are automatic, while yours are not. All it takes is to listen to exceptions once in a while to notice that CHQ pushed back about 15 minutes after they announced.

 

[aewanabe]

Hey BVT, first of all thanks for the response without the name calling and bashing.

About your first point: we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I'm definitely familiar with economies of scale, but the presentation to us on costs indicates your operating AND purchase costs are still higher per-airplane, NOT including crew. IOW if your airplane, with your discounts/bulk purchase plane etc... costs 22 million to purchase while ours costs 17 million, that's 5 million per plane more it costs ma Delta to buy them for you. Similarly, while by flying a large number you may have your DOCs per hour down to, say 1200 (as opposed to a smaller CRJ operator who pays 1400 per hour to fly one); and our DOC is 1000 per hour.. well that's still 200 dollars more per airplane per block hour. That's the way I understand it. (BTW I'm quoting the numbers from memory so the actual numbers may be off.) And these costs are not including crew. If we had managed to get your payrates plus 10 percent, for example, our DOC would still only increase anywhere from 10-25 dollars per hour.

Second point: re times. The memo/incidents I was referring to occurred in MCO and DFW. I'm not that familiar with the CVG operation as it's fairly new and I don't operate on the Delta side. I will say this: I don't condone faking times no matter who does it. I don't have the balls to do it because I'm convinced Big Brother is always watching. Besides, delays are almost NEVER actually the crew's fault. We fly fast, work hard to clean the plane, and don't screw around. So if we don't call the actual times, the underlying problem causing the delay won't ever get solved. Frankly our UEX airplanes will have ACARS and there's talk about finally implementing it in the rest of the fleet. I hope it happens.. reduces workload and is one less detail I've gotta deal with. If the problem you speak of is rampant in CVG, I'd expect a rocket memo from the CP any day now. With US in its precarious state the DL codeshare is very important both to us on the line and our upper management. I can't see them tolerating us f$#king it up with something that stupid. (Edited to add Besides, at block-or-better we've got zero incentive to call times wrong, and our pay-protection is based on completion factor, NOT on-time percentages.

And for a final PS: you might be surprised to learn I am a fan of Brand Scope and one list. How is that possible? Won't that knock me out of my 1-year upgrade? Maybe, but I'm still young. I think mainline ALPA dropped the ball on this 10, 15 years ago or more. I will probably have to start over one or more times at some point in my career: it would be great to get hired on the right seat of a 1900, 145, whatever, knowing that 10-12 years down the road I could progress to mainline-type equipment. One list, even with a B-Scale (instead of the C-F scales now at the regionals) all the way from the J-ball/Saab etc to the 7E7. Probably not realistic, but I happen to believe that Brand Scope is the first step towards acheiving that type of Utopia.