? regarding the possible NJ strike

[Fracster]

Good points, Fracster. Does anybody know what happens from an Owner perspective if all my flights start to occur on non-QS tails? I would imagine I would have the right to dump my fraction then and bail out of NJ or Marquis....

Holden1

Each owners contract stipulates the "owner" has the right to sell back the remaining portion of their share at "fair market value". Now, not knowing all the intricasies of the contract I question whether market value can be affected by a labor dispute. Either way its my understanding that selling back a share does not provide a good return.
As for Marquis, I'm not sure. Marquis is a very large customer right now and many of them are upset. They seem to be the first to receive a sell off. I would be pissed if I paid that much and didnt get my QS tail.
Lets not kid ourselves boys and girls, there are a lot of shady charter outfits out there. Each charter pilot is supposed to have a certain amount of time and be typed(I believe) but that clearly does not happen. I have met and seen many companies use less qualified pilots to get the job done and the owners know that.
We have an impeccable safety record at NetJets and the owners know this as well. Let me say one thing about our safety record so as not to come off arrogant. Our safety record lies heavily on the fact we are not are pressured to complete a trip if we deem the situation unsafe. We are never questioned about de-icing a plane or going into conditions we are not comfortable with. There are exceptions but not the norm.
Enough tangent for a while.

Hope that helps Holden1

 

[Ty Webb]

Well, Guys, I don't have a dog in this fight, other than the fact that I think you guys work hard and deserve to be paid fairly.

My guess is that nothing is going to happen for you until a strike is imminent. I also think that a strike will be avoided by your company at all costs . . . . . look at it from an owners' perspective:

1) They have paid for their aircraft- chartered aircraft for any period of time will not do.

2) The possible decrease in the value of their aircraft due to the possible liquidation of the company, or a mass exodus of owners will be a huge concern for them.

3) BH is under a lot of pressure right now due to their ownership interest in AIG and its accounting irregularities probe. The last thing they need is more bad publicity.

4) The customer of EJA will not be directly impacted by an increase in your wages. They have been paying for your raise for years, already . . you're just not receiving it. They will not have much sympathy for the company if a strike is allowed to happen.

5) This would be the first strike I can think of that would directly impact the "movers and shakers" of this country. The pressure to settle quickly will be pretty intense.

6) They (EJA) have a lot more to lose than you do. The only reason most of you are still hanging in there is because you expect a better future with the new contract. Without that new contract, the job is probably not worth continuing, not at those pay rates. You guys work far too hard to settle for so little.

To give you some perspective- when I was hired by AirTran 3 and a half years ago, I had an EJA interview scheduled. At that time, people were expecting the new contract to be settled soon. Since that time, I went from being a newhire . . . to a Captain . . . and now I am coming up on my first 6-month PC, and you guys are still waiting- I am just blown away by that.

I don't know the details, but I am surprised your union has not taken a strike vote already, unless they are concerned about getting the high percentage they need to show unity. Are they doing "road shows" about a strike vote yet?

Best of luck, and hope you get it- soon.

 

[I-R-DXR]

Well, Guys, I don't have a dog in this fight, other than the fact that I think you guys work hard and deserve to be paid fairly.

My guess is that nothing is going to happen for you until a strike is imminent. I also think that a strike will be avoided by your company at all costs . . . . . look at it from an owners' perspective:

1) They have paid for their aircraft- chartered aircraft for any period of time will not do.

2) The possible decrease in the value of their aircraft due to the possible liquidation of the company, or a mass exodus of owners will be a huge concern for them.

3) BH is under a lot of pressure right now due to their ownership interest in AIG and its accounting irregularities probe. The last thing they need is more bad publicity.

4) The customer of EJA will not be directly impacted by an increase in your wages. They have been paying for your raise for years, already . . you're just not receiving it. They will not have much sympathy for the company if a strike is allowed to happen.

5) This would be the first strike I can think of that would directly impact the "movers and shakers" of this country. The pressure to settle quickly will be pretty intense.

6) They (EJA) have a lot more to lose than you do. The only reason most of you are still hanging in there is because you expect a better future with the new contract. Without that new contract, the job is probably not worth continuing, not at those pay rates. You guys work far too hard to settle for so little.

To give you some perspective- when I was hired by AirTran 3 and a half years ago, I had an EJA interview scheduled. At that time, people were expecting the new contract to be settled soon. Since that time, I went from being a newhire . . . to a Captain . . . and now I am coming up on my first 6-month PC, and you guys are still waiting- I am just blown away by that.

I don't know the details, but I am surprised your union has not taken a strike vote already, unless they are concerned about getting the high percentage they need to show unity. Are they doing "road shows" about a strike vote yet?

Best of luck, and hope you get it- soon.

Ty Webb-

I dont totally agree with all your points here.

#2 - I dont see a liquidation of the company. A market for Fractional Ownership is there. The numbers just need to work. Fractional must have something over charter and in house flight departments to survive.

#4 - How do you know the customer will not be impacted? Have you seen the books? If the Company says they cant afford the pay raise requested ask for a 3rd party audit. Maybe??

#6 - Yes EJA has a lot more to lose - thousands of workers in brideway too. My only hope is for a better future. We all have seen Company flight Unions and vice versa until thats all that is left - No more company or job.


The biggest beef seems to be about pay here. Well folks pay aint everything. QOL, medical, life, dental insurance, 401k, and

STABILITY

As for pay let me bring this up:

A general thought Ive heard on this board is that the owner thinks you are highly paid professionals. OK Mr. Owner is asked to raise his monthly fee to $$$$ to cover the cost of your pay raise. What will he/she say?

or how about this:

Mr Owner asks about the pay pilots get. The company says Mr. Owner we have offered a contract that pays the Pilots bla bla percent more that the other 3 largest Fractional Companies - but they want more than double their current pay. (guess there)

>>>>>>

Question

If The Company does not pay well why does it take so long to get PIC? You would think people would move on rather quick. Honest question here.


Fracster -
That safety record / policy is at the top of the list as you pointed. Another note is all *QS tails have a licensed DXR looking at every flight prior to the Cpt. approval.

 

[holden1]

I think NJA pilots def. have something to gripe about, no question. I cannot see it going to strike, though. I am more in line with Ty Webb's line of reasoning.

If I pay $500,000+ for an acquisition fee, then a monthly management fee, THEN an hourly occupied fee and I received an overflow of NON-QS tails? Forget it. I'd fly charter or a block card program and NJA knows this. If pilots go on strike it'll be extremely bad for NJA.

Holden 1

 

[Fracster]

Fracster -
That safety record / policy is at the top of the list as you pointed. Another note is all *QS tails have a licensed DXR looking at every flight prior to the Cpt. approval

If by DXR you mean dispatcher then I can see how you would assume so. Allow me to briefly educate you on our dispatch. Yes, they are 121 certified but any resemblence to actual 121 dispatchers stops there.
NJA dispatchers will release you into an airport that is closed, use data for a runway that is closed, release you with too much fuel for conditions, not enough fuel for the trip, release you into severe turbulence, known icing...etc. The list goes on and on.

The only real benefit to our dispatch is the simple fact they file our flight plans. Not having to call FSS is the reason they are useful.

If I pay $500,000+ for an acquisition fee, then a monthly management fee, THEN an hourly occupied fee and I received an overflow of NON-QS tails? Forget it. I'd fly charter or a block card program and NJA knows this. If pilots go on strike it'll be extremely bad for NJA.

It is in the owners contract that a non-QS tail can be used in the absence of a company aircraft. In the past that clause meant very little but due to the growing number of owners and Marqui card holders that little clause is causing great tension.
I sm sure some sort of class action law suit will be filed to control how the aircraft are used between an owner and a Marquis card holder. And, in typical NJA fashion, it will probably be swept under the rug and kept out of public eye.

 

[Publishers]

The fact is that you are never flying for the most part in your aircraft so what difference does it really make. My friends always liked the fact that sometimes they ended up with another better upgrade aircraft.

The problem was they left because it was too expensive and they just bought their own.


The thing here is that even paying the pilots relatively low wages, the price to the customer is obscene. To give the same level of service that the customer would have with his aircraft waiting at the airport for him, Netjets has an extremely expensive model working overtime to keep up. Higher use of equipment they do not control just means more trouble maintaining the standards.

The question is and remains, how much stress can this model take and go forth. Will the VLJ's have an impact? Can they continue to sell card type programs and not feel increases in pressure to the system? Wil the owners feel they are being held hostage to someone elses program.

 

[njwingman]

The question is and remains, how much stress can this model take and go forth. Will the VLJ's have an impact? Can they continue to sell card type programs and not feel increases in pressure to the system? Wil the owners feel they are being held hostage to someone elses program.

YES
NO
YES

 

[rvsm410]

If by DXR you mean dispatcher then I can see how you would assume so. Allow me to briefly educate you on our dispatch. Yes, they are 121 certified but any resemblence to actual 121 dispatchers stops there.
NJA dispatchers will release you into an airport that is closed, use data for a runway that is closed, release you with too much fuel for conditions, not enough fuel for the trip, release you into severe turbulence, known icing...etc. The list goes on and on.

The only real benefit to our dispatch is the simple fact they file our flight plans. Not having to call FSS is the reason they are useful.

Wow! This does not say much for dispatch there.....especially for the outstanding pay they get, $35 K to start just to file flight plans..huh? You can do this on Duats a bit cheaper than that....

Really, the Dx there are that poor, or the management directives are more focused on the customer than on safety....I am just trying to reason why they have all thoses licensed dispatcher, new class starting next week and you get to fly into bad thunderstorms and such...

 

[cl604driver]

I dont see how any of you netjet guys can think that if some other corporate company flies your passengers during a strike see us as scabs. if you look at it that way does it mean; if Delta goes on strike and the passengers go fly on American are the American pilots scabs? For god sakes get your heads out of your ass. We are working for OUR company (not Netjets) , following our rules and regs not yours and our paychecks are not signed by anyone from Netjets. Hopefully someone at Netjets will figure this out and say that was a stupid comment that i made. On the other side of the coin I am there with you guys and hope you get your contract as you deserve, I know what you are feeling.

 

[Ultra Grump]

I dont see how any of you netjet guys can think that if some other corporate company flies your passengers during a strike see us as scabs. if you look at it that way does it mean; if Delta goes on strike and the passengers go fly on American are the American pilots scabs? For god sakes get your heads out of your ass. We are working for OUR company (not Netjets) , following our rules and regs not yours and our paychecks are not signed by anyone from Netjets. Hopefully someone at Netjets will figure this out and say that was a stupid comment that i made. On the other side of the coin I am there with you guys and hope you get your contract as you deserve, I know what you are feeling.

Uh, hello? Wrong thread. The only ones in this thread talking about scabs are you, NewBlue and T-Rex, none of whom are NetJets pilots.

Let it go.