Reading Maxim in uniform

[MMO 0.705]

Rez O Lewshun....its only a job man.....not a civic duty....who cares....do what makes you happy and if that includes listening to the ipod in the terminal ..tell everyone to f**#k off

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, you and I are usually on the same page on this stuff, but I've got to disagree with you here. I agree that the Maxim is inappropriate to be reading in uniform (I won't even purchase one while in uniform), but the FA is out of line to be telling the jumpseater what to do. She can politely request it, but that should be as far as it goes. If any demands are going to be made of the jumpseater, they should be made by the Captain of that flight, not the FA..

Well, we might be argueing semantics.....

Who represents the CA's authority during flight, with the cockpit door closed? If you can't delegate your authority to the people who work for you then I suggest your mindset change. AND trust them that they will do the right thing............if you can't then that says more about you than the people that work for you.

How is this going to go down? FA complains that jumpseaters behavior is inappropriate (whatever it may be...). CA asks FA to ask J/S'er to talk to CA on interphone so CA can correct the J/S'er.

I see the issue entirely with the jumpseater. If his/her behavior is enough that it catches the attention the FA, that is enough for me. Sure I'll get both sides of the story, but it really isn't that difficult to NOT attract negative attention.

That is what is comes down to. My crew comes first. Jumpseaters second. Look the jumpseater is already on. He has gotten what he wanted. A free ride. If the FA is rude to him, how important is it for the jumpseater to get an apology. Just smile and get off the jet. Move on. Get over it.

But really, this is getting petty... 90% of the time there is no jumpseater issue becuase 90% of the jumpseaters are...... professional. (dang it... I said it...that crusty ol 12 letter word of yesteryear!)

I look at it the other way around. If my FA gave the jumpseater (MY guest) a hassle, then I would have words with the FA. I will not put up with FAs being rude to a jumpseater that is there as my guest..

Sounds a bit old school.... King-ish. Patriarch. Capt is G-O-D. Ernie Gann stuff..... But what it really comes down to is civility, repsect, trust and professionalism. It is not that difficult to do. And 90% of time crews are .....so what is the big deal.

This is one of my pet peeves. The entire airplane is the Captain's jurisdiction.

Don't worry. You get all the authority and all the responsibility. And the reward. Nobody is trying to take it away from you.

But you can't do it all. You can't do the safety briefing, serve the drinks and fly the jet. Only rarely do you need to brush the dust off the fourth stripe. 90% of the time the operation runs smoothly without CA's declaring the boundries of his sandbox, huffing his chest and declaring his royal rights. Good CA's never have to do this...I see more fiefdom attitude here then teamwork.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez O Lewshun....its only a job man.....not a civic duty....who cares....do what makes you happy and if that includes listening to the ipod in the terminal ..tell everyone to f**#k off

Only a job.... I'm fighting real hard.... to keep it a profession. I can get a job anywhere, anytime.. But to find a profession that is worth it and fun is alot more difficult. If we think it is a job, then that is what we deserve and all the perks that come with a job.

If you don't care then we don't care. Someone has got to have concern and the courage to do so..... otherwise the whole thing does down the toilet.

Well... as a professional with a personal code, I tell can't everyone to F off.

If I tell my Chief Pilot to F-off, the carpet dance and paperwork just isn't worth it.

If I tell my crewmemebers to F off then my effectiveness with them goes south.

If I tell my passengers to F off then they won't comeback and will find another brand.

I just don't see the value in telling others to F off just so I can wear an Ipod in uniform. It is not that important to me.... But that is just me... If you feel it is important to wear an Ipod and tell others to F off, then be your own man...

 

[John Pennekamp]

Show me where it says you are entitled, deserve or earned a free ride. I don't screen thier reading material, but I screen their attitude and behavior. Bad attitude means no jumpseat. What I look for in a jumpseater and how I try to behave as a jumpseater is with: humilty, repsect (both self and of others), a request, proper docs, a positive attitude and gratittude.




No tattling here. Plenty of opportunity for one to self correct. Poor behavior was highlighted. Consequences of not recognizing poor behavior and apologizing where indicated. Thus giving the offending free ride pilot an understanding that HE does not run the show on anothers ship.

Yeah we are talking about a magazine, but we are really talking about offensive behavior. What do hope to gain by offending a crew you are getting a free ride. Is your ego that important that you have to have it your way? Besides what is so important in Maxim mag or any entertainment mag that it must be read on a jet. Can't it wait till you get home? Or go to the LAV and read it.



Translation to your FA's: You own the cabin, but if a jumpseater offends you and I, Capt. John Pannekamp, agree with the jumpseater, then I will lecture you. You can only be offended if I say so. I will tell you how to feel. I, your Capt, will control your mind as part of you accepting employment here and agreeing to serve under my command.

FA's in my crew come before jumpseaters. They show up before the jumpseater and stay alot longer than jumpseaters... I am comfortable with this priority schedule. I am not going to sacrifice a FA's postive attitude or offend her so some clown can read an entertainment magazine.



I don't guess. In this situation I know. FA's don't have to do anything for jumpseaters. I don't expect them to either.



Boeingman, DAngelo, Dave Benjiman, Sig, Fins etc..... I am being accused of being pro-management! If I were in the carrib with management they'd see my ALPA ink. (no, I really don't have an ALPA tattoo! )

Man attitudes like yours indicate, when an emergency hits you are the first one out the door. Stepping over old ladies and kids. You're a real gem.

It is incredibly clear that you are disapointed with your job and career. Your expectations aren't being met. This issue is a tip of the icebeg with your problem. Call your buddies up, buy a six pack and let it all out man!

Dude, you've got some serious control issues. I don't screen my jumpseaters for anything except proper credentials. Jumpseating is "Professional Courtesy". Quit acting like a skynazi and give the guys a ride, not a judge of "attitude".

By the way, I love my job, but I don't love my company. And the cheap shot about stepping over old ladies only further demonstrates your lack of character and integrity.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If a man has a gun, he can wear a backpack in my book.

Anyway, all of this discussion is a result of the post-modern mindset. ...

If an FFDO has a gun, he can carry a small black nylon/ballistic bag slightly larger than the metal case. Many do... looks sharp. But hey, if you can intimidate or be intimidated by a backpack wearing dude with a gun....

More on the post modern mindset...

Basically, "I'm not going to do something because you said so, or because it's "right"...I'll only do something because you prove, empirically, it is the correct thing to do" ...

I always thought we did things cause it was the right think to do.... but that seems so subjective nowadays... Or maybe it is just the current culture of instant gratification and selfishness.....

Not sure how to prove empirically that something is the right thing to do... again..its subjective...

Since things like etiquette and professionalism are currently up for debate(due to post modern thinking), this issue will NEVER be resolved. BUT, continue arguing, it's fun to watch...

Post modern thinking is servant leadership and eglitarianism. Class structure and hiearchies are old school. No this is not socialism. It is teamwork and problem solving. It is goal setting and effectiveness. If people are of the mindset of "Up yours I got mine", then this isn't for you......

 

[PCL_128]

Well, we might be argueing semantics.....

Who represents the CA's authority during flight, with the cockpit door closed? If you can't delegate your authority to the people who work for you then I suggest your mindset change. AND trust them that they will do the right thing............if you can't then that says more about you than the people that work for you.

How is this going to go down? FA complains that jumpseaters behavior is inappropriate (whatever it may be...). CA asks FA to ask J/S'er to talk to CA on interphone so CA can correct the J/S'er.

I see the issue entirely with the jumpseater. If his/her behavior is enough that it catches the attention the FA, that is enough for me. Sure I'll get both sides of the story, but it really isn't that difficult to NOT attract negative attention.

The problem is this: I've seen far too many FAs that have an attitude problem that translates into bad treatment of jumpseaters. Some of them have a problem with the fact that pilots ride for free when they have to buy passes, and others are just plain old skyhags that are rude to all passengers anyway. Whatever the case, it is unacceptable for our fellow pilots to be treated poorly by an FA. With all else equal, my fellow pilot gets the benefit of the doubt. If the FA has a valid concern (jumpseater drinking alcohol during flight, reading pornographic material, using inappropriate language, etc...), then the FA needs to bring it to my attention. I can decide how to handle it from there.

Remember, the jumpseat isn't just some "free ride," it is a professional courtesy offered from a Captain to a fellow pilot. We should do our best to make sure that the jumpseater is treated fairly by the gate agents and FAs. Simply blowing it off as a "free ride" and suggesting that the jumpseater should just put up with whatever abuse he is given is just wrong. Your fellow pilot deserves better than that.

That is what is comes down to. My crew comes first. Jumpseaters second.

That's inconsistent. The jumpseater is a part of the crew. XCM = extra crew member.

Sounds a bit old school

No argument there. I'm very much "old school." I don't view that as a bad thing.

Don't worry. You get all the authority and all the responsibility. And the reward. Nobody is trying to take it away from you.

I disagree. Do you honestly believe that there hasn't been a slow erosion of PIC authority over the years? Ask the Captains at UPS that have been told by the FAA that they cannot deny company jumpseaters. The old idea of "the Captain is God" certainly wasn't right, but neither is what we are sliding towards now.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Dude, you've got some serious control issues. I don't screen my jumpseaters for anything except proper credentials. Jumpseating is "Professional Courtesy". Quit acting like a skynazi and give the guys a ride, not a judge of "attitude".

By the way, I love my job, but I don't love my company. And the cheap shot about stepping over old ladies only further demonstrates your lack of character and integrity.

Control Issues? Well maybe. I do control my jumpseat. Why? There are many in this industry that would love to take away jumpseating for good. As pilots we have fought very hard to keep the one last perk this career provides. One or a couple of screw ups and jumpseatting is restricted or gone!

Piss off a FA..fine. As a CA you don't support her... fine. She goes to her management and writes it up. Management solution.... jumpseat on XYZ Airlines is banned for good or 90 days or whatever...

You guys are priceless....


I guess we will agree to diagree. It is also a Professional Courtesy.....as a jumpseater... to be shall I say..... I don't know...maybe.....be..courteous.

Proper crendentials doesn't demand or entitle a free ride. That is only the half of it.

It is either a cheap shot or an indication of how you come across.....

 

[wmuflyguy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by xjmnpilot
WMUFLYGUY - I think the Editors of Maxim would be highly dissapointed in you! Their take would be to turn the interest in your reading material by the F/A an opportunity! You should have turned that passive agressiveness right on back around and said, "Hey, its not that bad. Sit down next to me here and take a look!" . . . . . . . . . . .. You could then ask questions about which women she finds more attractive, one thing leads to another....you get it? The added benefit is crew harmony...



Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! Thanks for playing.


.

Guys this was your typical DAL FA. If your into that kidna thing knock yourself out, but she was as old as my mom.

 

[The_Russian]

I don't have much time to post, but I agree with Rez 100%. We wear a uniform because we are professionals. We have a civic duty do transport people safely though the air to their destination. If you want it to be just a job, please hang your hat and leave. As for myself and every aviator I know that cares about this profession, we prefer to make it our lifestyle. We make it our lifestyle because it is our duty to. We must know everything we can surrounding the field of aeronautical knowledge and subjects. Just as other professions that care, teach, and serve the general public. We must maintain our professional mindset at all times.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The problem is this: I've seen far too many FAs that have an attitude problem that translates into bad treatment of jumpseaters. Some of them have a problem with the fact that pilots ride for free when they have to buy passes, and others are just plain old skyhags that are rude to all passengers anyway. Whatever the case, it is unacceptable for our fellow pilots to be treated poorly by an FA. With all else equal, my fellow pilot gets the benefit of the doubt. If the FA has a valid concern (jumpseater drinking alcohol during flight, reading pornographic material, using inappropriate language, etc...), then the FA needs to bring it to my attention. I can decide how to handle it from there..

I think that is a perception of yours....a stereo type of FAs.

I also believe we are arguing the nitty gritty, but what it really comes down to is leadership style...

In the very rare case that a FA and jumpseater has a conflict, I think a good CA can resolve the issue with all parties maintaining their respect, dignity and trust.

Remember, the jumpseat isn't just some "free ride," it is a professional courtesy offered from a Captain to a fellow pilot. We should do our best to make sure that the jumpseater is treated fairly by the gate agents and FAs. Simply blowing it off as a "free ride" and suggesting that the jumpseater should just put up with whatever abuse he is given is just wrong. Your fellow pilot deserves better than that..

Again, I am sensing a pre-dispostiton...almost an us vs. them. Almost that you are on constant look out for agents and FAs treating fellow pilots poorly.

That's inconsistent. The jumpseater is a part of the crew. XCM = extra crew member..

Wow. I get the impression you'd favor a jumpseater over your FA. One crew member that is on board for one flight who isn't required over a required crew member that you have to work with for up to four days! Yikes!

Again, I think a good leader doesn't have to choose between the two....

No argument there. I'm very much "old school." I don't view that as a bad thing..

Those who can't adapt, adjust, innovate and evolve will be left behind. I remember your way of thinking in my own head...

I disagree. Do you honestly believe that there hasn't been a slow erosion of PIC authority over the years? Ask the Captains at UPS that have been told by the FAA that they cannot deny company jumpseaters. The old idea of "the Captain is God" certainly wasn't right, but neither is what we are sliding towards now.

Again... the evolution... There are local cases where PIC authority is challenged but it has always been like that from the beginning. The authority gradient has shallowed, however the PIC authority isn't compromised. I don't think it is in my flights...but that is just me....

I am currently reading Shackleton's Way. An incredible analysis of one of the greatest successful failures. In fact I am disapointed in myself for not reading by posting here.... (my ego....). Shackleton was one of the greatest leaders of all time and he did in ways that would intimidate and unrest many. All of this happened in 1914-1916. Shackleton lived in "Old School" times.. but he was far ahead of us today....