Re-Regulating the US Airline Industry

[Bringupthebird]

Yes, there is a case for re=regulation being made. The former head of AMR is requesting a look at it along with others.

What they are saying is that the airline system (due to there being no viable long-haul competition vis a vis rail) has become a national interest of sorts and should be protected.

What it has actually become is a commodity, with no real distinction among players. The internet distribution has helped hasten the erosion of yields by stoking hyper-competitiveness. Add the fact that the airline biz is all about cash and that it's profit margins are grocery-store thin and you can see why the best and brightest aren't attracted to this dead-end industry.

And they aren't about to pay a penny more for labor than they have to.

 

[waveflyer]

Pilot wages have dropped because the conditions that brought them about in the first place (industry expansion and the race for market share, the lack of pilots with the skill sets necessary to transition from props to jets) have changed and permanently. Qualifying for a position on the flight deck of a jet can be done in 6 months from zero hours. How much is someone like that worth?

Sorry, but Obama isn't your Hope here.

It's always been that way grumps, we just got lazy w/ our unions and had corrupt nmb and gov't officials w/ an agenda interferring w/ our negotiating ability.
To say that it's young guys fault - it's ridiculous- united has had several periods where they hired and trained pilots w/ 200 hours and a commercial license. The military takes zero time guys and gets them up to speed in a year- It can always be done. Our problems lie in our lack of leverage and the fact that the old do not look out for the young.

 

[cjdriver]

Nothing will happen that does not benefit your management. If it behooves them to re-regulate they will have it done by their lackies in the legislature/administration.

 

[waveflyer]

would you give up that easily in an emergency, CJ?

 

[milky]

Pilot wages have dropped because the conditions that brought them about in the first place (industry expansion and the race for market share, the lack of pilots with the skill sets necessary to transition from props to jets) have changed and permanently. Qualifying for a position on the flight deck of a jet can be done in 6 months from zero hours. How much is someone like that worth?

Sorry, but Obama isn't your Hope here.

This has been my exact point on so many posts. In a market sense, our value is not so good right now. Some would argue that there is something to be said for experience in the cockpit, but the market does not seem to agree much right now. So, pay your big money to get your big ATP and make $20,000/year. That's the way it is going these days...

 

[Bringupthebird]

It's always been that way grumps, we just got lazy w/ our unions and had corrupt nmb and gov't officials w/ an agenda interferring w/ our negotiating ability.

Why do you suppose United hired people with 200 hours? Were they passing over guys with 10,000 hours? Could it have been the fact that they had hundreds of jets on order and a ton of retiring prop pilots who were unwilling to embrace change?

The point is, when this job was at it's greatest, it was very difficult to get. When the RJ explosion proved that you can throw a 300 hour guy into a jet and they don't come falling from the skies, it meant that experience was overpriced and unnecessary.

It's unnecessary to make this a young/old thing. The young should see the airline pilot job as one of many they will have over the course of their lives rather than as a lifelong career.

The fantasy of the white-haired old salt retiring to his sailboat after a well-lived career is a bunch of crap. He's down filling out an application at Home Depot and wishing he was either 25 years older (so he wouldn't need as much money to live on for the remainder of his life) or dead.

 

[waveflyer]

Thank you management grumpy-
I don't mean to make this a young/old thing. Old guys did that. By not looking out for the career. The only difference between then and now is that the small jets aren't flown by the majors w/ strong unions and experienced aviators voting- they are flown by carriers that will never have enough leverage to vote in good contracts.

WHO VOTED TO RELEASE SCOPE?
WHO CONTINUES TO, TIME AND TIME AGAIN?

Old major airline pilots do- that's who. And then they blame guys struggling to make this into a career. I call bullsh!t on your whole line of logic- Depending on how old you are- you just don't want to admit that you're responsible for the failings of this career.

But it's not over. Do what the usair east guys did w/ the 190, and just say that any new airplane, regardless of size will be flown by us-- it's that simple. Are their 190 rates crap- yeah... but at least they are on the correct list. I love them for "getting" it regardless of my take on usapa. Then you can have young guys line up for that job- and pilots would now get furloughed in the proper order.

 

[cjdriver]

would you give up that easily in an emergency, CJ?

No, I'll be voting democrat this year.

 

[milky]

...
The point is, when this job was at it's greatest, it was very difficult to get. When the RJ explosion proved that you can throw a 300 hour guy into a jet and they don't come falling from the skies, it meant that experience was overpriced and unnecessary.

...

That is exactly correct. The bloom is off the rose. Apparently the world thinks that the safety repercussions of inexperience in the cockpit is a risk worth taking. With two pilots in there and one of those two being pretty experienced usually, maybe you don't need experience as an F/O. Either way, commercial pilots' market value has definitely gone down in the past 10 years. Will it go back up? Probably only if the supply of low hour pilots willing to work for poverty wages goes down. Since flying is the 'dream job' of a lot of people, I guess that will probably not change.

 

[BoilerUP]

That is exactly correct. The bloom is off the rose. Apparently the world thinks that the safety repercussions of inexperience in the cockpit is a risk worth taking. With two pilots in there and one of those two being pretty experienced usually, maybe you don't need experience as an F/O. Either way, commercial pilots' market value has definitely gone down in the past 10 years. Will it go back up? Probably only if the supply of low hour pilots willing to work for poverty wages goes down. Since flying is the 'dream job' of a lot of people, I guess that will probably not change.

The market value of airline pilots may have gone down...but that doesn't hold true for other sectors like cargo, fractional, or 91.

We also have to look at the causes behind airline pilot "market values" decreasing: company financial weakness and poor business planning, a good supply of new labor, and most importantly, pilots themselves...allowing outsourcing of increasingly larger small jets to former "commuter" pilots and the acceptance via ratification of increasingly concessionary contracts subsidizing those aforementioned financial weaknesses. IMO pilots are the primary reason because, as you say, many people wouldn't want to or couldn't see themselves doing anything other profession which would match even their concessionary QOL and income.

Although flying is a desired profession and many people wish they were professional pilots, the lower the expected lifestyle and compensation (and the higher the cost of training) the fewer pilots are interested in pursuing aviation as a career. This trend is reflected in decreases at flight schools across the country, as well as reduced applications at many colleges with aviation programs.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Thank you management grumpy-
I don't mean to make this a young/old thing. Old guys did that. By not looking out for the career. The only difference between then and now is that the small jets aren't flown by the majors w/ strong unions and experienced aviators voting- they are flown by carriers that will never have enough leverage to vote in good contracts.

WHO VOTED TO RELEASE SCOPE?
WHO CONTINUES TO, TIME AND TIME AGAIN?

Old major airline pilots do- that's who. And then they blame guys struggling to make this into a career. I call bullsh!t on your whole line of logic- Depending on how old you are- you just don't want to admit that you're responsible for the failings of this career.

But it's not over. Do what the usair east guys did w/ the 190, and just say that any new airplane, regardless of size will be flown by us-- it's that simple. Are their 190 rates crap- yeah... but at least they are on the correct list. I love them for "getting" it regardless of my take on usapa. Then you can have young guys line up for that job- and pilots would now get furloughed in the proper order.

You losing me wave. You say that pilots at the majors aren't looking out for your future career because they traded a loose grasp on payrates in exchange for decimating scope. So would you prefer that the major pilots bought scope protection by taking wage cuts so that the job you look forward to isn't much better than the one you have. That's just what the US pilots did. Now there's both less incentive for regional pilots to leave their jobs to come to US and the pilots have admitted that they aren't really worth what the airline had paid a pilot to fly a 90-100 seat jet, so why not demand concessions?

Again pitting young against old doesn't solve the problem (unless the problem is you want somebody to blame). The regional pilot should demand more for his services. The old-timer can't do anything to stop him. Should we hold an intervention in the HR office at Mesa when a newly minted San Juan College grad goes in for his interview? Are RJ's dangerous career weapons in the hands of an ambitious, but misguided young pilot? If I said that I'd be eviscerated, but that is what you're implying.

Look at the guys at Midex and what they're facing. They are being extorted into working for RJ wages by a loan shark called TPG and Republic. Will the Republic pilots show up and refuse to fly the jets assigned to them? I don't think the Midex guys can hold much hope for that. Like all of us dogs, we eat the kibble that's put in front of us.

Most dogs aren't cannibals, though.

 

[waveflyer]

I'll say it then.
RJ's are dangerous career weapons in the hands of ambitious, naive, and misguided young pilots. They don't know the realities of the airlines yet. It's just about getting to the "utopia" called the majors.
But there's more to it- once they "get it"- they won't have the leverage b/c if they get too strong collectively- their flying is transferred to the next up and coming "best" regional.

The reason there is downward pressure on wages is b/c it's price elastic... well= news flash- it's always been that way.... We won b/c we stood together... You outsource some of your flying- and you can't stand together. And that's the real problem... and again-- it's not blame- it's responsibility- Major pilots took the concessions to save their jobs- and voted for outsourcing to save their jobs- We simply didn't want to start over at the bottom someplace else- management knew it- and we did more to damage our career than a liquidation would have ever caused us individually.

Going forward- i just want to stress that the we need to get scope back under the umbrella- and it's worth striking over. EVERY RJ under the mainline brand- no matter who likes it