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Ramp check do's And don'ts

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Must have been ramped around 20-30 times and never had any real problems. Actually it helps if you work for a roach operation, if they (FAA) ground the airplane at least it will get fixed before you are allowed to depart. Like some of the previous posters said, have your paper work in order, I would say that's about 75% of the check right here.

Here is also a hint for any freight dogs flyin on a Thursday night, before a long (holiday) weekend. Inspectors seemt to be out in full force so they don't have to be in the office on Friday, or Monday. In that case they get 4 days off to relax at home and hanging out with mother-im-law. At least 8 years ago this was pretty common in MIA, MCO or ATL.
 
Waka, If they say 'all four', they are opening themselves up to all sorts of problems. And not just from you. Their guidance allows them to choice the type of inspection to be conducted. Each inspection covers a lot of information. This does not preclude them from looking into something else if they see a problem. Generally when you ask that you are telling them, you are familiar with their handbook. That tends to make the inspection go a little bit easier and quicker.

261, The forth, I would lump into aircraft loading and servcing. The check airman observed ride is covered under a different section.

By boxing them in, all you are doing is getting them to commit to what they are looking for and what areas they will deal with.

Of course if they do find a machanical problem, it could be difficult to depart. And they do track maintenance slips they issue. However, there is a section on the form for airworthy or un-airworthy. Normally they will check one of those boxes. If they don't, I would use my best judgement. Keep a photo copy of the slip for your records.

261, you are correct that MOST inspectors don't like to file violations due to the amount of paperwork. But there are those who do. Just be careful. If you have you ducks in a row and have complete records, it is not unusual to beat the violation. As long as you were right. Unfortunately, when the FAA goes after a company, the employees also get it in the butt.

Waka, as for 'common sense', it sounds like you have not dealt with the FAA that much. Unfortunately, in today's legal enviroment, they tend to follow the regs right down the line, unless you can show them 'Letters of Interpretation' from legal otherwise. Many of the regs date back to the 50's and 60's and do not allow for the changes in technoligy. And some of them do have axes to grind. Yes they are few, but because it is difficult to discipline them for such conduct, they get promoted and become supervisors and trainers. And the problem continues. And one other point, we existed before they did, and the day we go away, they go away. Not the other way around.

chperplt, if you think a 1900 is an old dinosaur, think again, please. I'm admitting my age, but DC3's and 6's are much older and are still seen in the US skies, as working aircraft . And they get ramped regularly. And there are many jets that went out of production before or around the time the 1900 was introduced. DA20, B727, B707, B720, Hansa, Lear 23/24/25/28/29, DC8, DC9, etc. And they are still around. But any ratty looking aircraft will attract FAA attention.
 
What about a non commercial flight?

Most of the posts have been about 135 operations. I am not a commercial pilot and fly rental airplanes most of the time. Rick 1128 said in a previous post said that part 91's don't get ramp checked very often.

I guess I have a couple of questions about this, mainly about the side of it that relates to small bug smashers.

1) I guess in 4 years or so I have never been ramp checked. How often would a non-commercial light airplane be ramp checked?

2) In this case what would an inspector look for? If I smile and nod a lot and show my certificate and medical is that usually sufficient?

3) Is anything off-limits?
 
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A few more tips

Tips from Av. Law class @ ERAU I took a while back (General Aviation Law from the Practical Flying Series was the text used....a good one)

1. Never let them take your paperwork. You must show them, but DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES let them take posession, even to the point of holding it up for them to read, but not letting them touch.

2. Don't carry your logbook (or deny having it if it isn't in plain view). You aren't required to show it if you don't have it and you are asking for trouble if you do show it. They can ask you to bring it into the FSDO at a later date, but you'll have time to go over it with a fine tooth comb in the meanwhile....

3. Don't admit anything...cooperate but don't volunteer any extra info.

I'll go grab the book later and post more....

Chunk
 
1. Never let them take your paperwork. You must show them, but DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES let them take posession, even to the point of holding it up for them to read, but not letting them touch.

So when the guy/gal wants to look through the maintenance folder and see what MELs or DMIs we have, I should hold the paperwork and turn each page for them? I think your paranoia is getting the best of you.
 
TXCAP,

Part 91 flights don't get ramped very much at all. Due to Part 119, all commercial operators have to have their company name or certificate number posted prominately near the entry door. This in my opinion has reduced the number of Part 91 ramp checks. And depending on the aircraft type. About the only way a Part 91 bug smasher will get ramped is the Inspector is there anyway and isn't busy. Or something attracted his attention.

The only time I have ever been ramped on a real Part 91 flight, the inspector asked to see my certificates, registration and airworthiness certificates. Walked around the aircraft and waved goodbye. As for what is off limits, not a whole lot. They can't open up suitcases or the like. They could have you weight your baggage, but not likely. (too much work for them). I don't carry my logbook or the aircraft logbooks with me. If they want to see them, they will have to request them in writing. Their own guidence requires them to request these materials in writing via certified mail.

The issue about the paperwork, I believe goes back many years. It was not unknown for Inspectors to keep a pilot's certificate and claim the pilot had surrendered it. The regs have changed and there are procedures to be followed before a pilot can surrender his certificates to an Inspector. The rest of the stuff by chuck is common sense. I have been told by several feds that airmen are their own worst enemies when it comes to dealing with the feds.
 
Rick1128 said:
The only time I have ever been ramped on a real Part 91 flight, the inspector asked to see my certificates, registration and airworthiness certificates. Walked around the aircraft and waved goodbye. As for what is off limits, not a whole lot. They can't open up suitcases or the like. They could have you weight your baggage, but not likely. (too much work for them).
Thanks forthe info, Rick. Based on your experience, with ramp check of a pt 91 flyer, would having some "typical" w&b sheets cut it? I have several scenarios calc'd that are in my POH. Have they ever asked you for w&b info? your thoughts on this?
 
Only Part 135 multi engine aircraft are required to have w&b forms. For Part 91, about all you are required to do is to be in W&B limits. They only ask me to W&B info on 135 flights. But I would be reasonable about it. And I believe they would also. If they see three average people get out of a 172. No problem. They see you and three sumo wreslers get out, then you might have a problem.
 
Thanks!

Rick 1128 and others, thanks for the info. I learn more from reading through these threads for an hour than I do in an average couple of months of flying.

This is just one of the issues I have always wanted to ask a FSDO or a DE about but never had the nerve. Thanks again.
 
Thanks everyone. This has been a very informative thread. I was also wondering if a NASA form could be used if necessary.
 
chperplt,


By paperwork, I meant personal....certificates and medicals...

These aren't my tips, they are from a textbook written by an av. lawyer.

Chunk
 
Ramp checks

The feds may make you feel as if you're a criminal when they approach (or should I say, accost) you and announce that they're hear to help. However, it's not a criminal proceding and you cannot invoke any Constitutional rights.

However, you have the right not to volunteer information. In other words, just answer their questions. If they ask to see your logbook and you happen to have it with you, you do not have to surrender it on the spot for their inspection. The FARs say the feds have the right to view your logbook on reasonable notice - meaning that you should make an appointment with the fed in his/her office and bring your aviation attorney with you.

Also, be careful if they ask you to surrender your certificates. My understanding is that surrendering your certificates to a fed is tantamount to surrendering your privilege to fly. Of course, the FARs set forth the formal procedures for surrendering your privilege to fly.

Avweb has an excellent three-part series on FAA enforcement actions . I always recommend this book, Practical Aviation Law by J. Scott Hamilton
ISBN: 0813818087, available at www.bn.com and elsewhere.

Hope that helps some more.
 
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I have handed over my medical and license several times during a pt 121 and 135 ramp check. You are not surrendering it by doing so.

never admit to previously flying the aircraft.

never admit to anything.

before he leaves ask him pointblank 'are there any violations?" If he says no then you later take off he has no violatioon against you. he cannot mislead you.

every word you say can be used against you in a violation hearing. keep it shut!

do cooperate, if you are acting like a jerk and piss him off you will have problems.


to end the ramp check early, tell him you have to leave NOW, as you have a clearance void time (uncontrolled fileds only) and he cannot delay you.
 
I keep an old medical in my wallet. The older the better. When they see it, they think now i've got him. Then I produce the current one and tell him that one must have been left in there by mistake. Works great to defuse the whole ordeal.
 
Dos:
Be Nice
Hand over the certificates
Hide the logbook

Don'ts:
Yell "Quick Bob hide the weed"
Be an ASS
Run
Try to hide an obvious violation
 

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