Ralpa

[E145Pilot]

Alright, since everyone is consistently bashing each other on this board and talking about the race to the bottom, I want to hear any/all ideas regarding the formation of one unified regional airline pilots association. I've heard this mentioned occasionally as the ONLY way to save our futures from the whipsawing/undercutting tactics of various management groups. I tend to agree, but lacking much experience in the labor arena, I can't see how we could ever get the ball rolling.

I know that there would be many legal hurdles, not to mention the fact that no management in the country will let it happen without a fight, but I'd like to hear what everyone has to say about this possibility. Why not use this forum to begin discussing a way to better ourselves collectively, than bash the pilot group from across the street? Let's put the pi$$ing match aside for one thread and see what happens.

 

[Rekks Inbound]

E145Pilot,
The idea has been floating around for quite awhile, and I believe it has a great deal of merit. I don't see the problem as being legal, however; it is more financial. We won't admit it as a group, but ALPA has some very good resources at it's disposal, and these resources come with a fairly high pricetag.
Chances are they would not be available without the contributions of the mainline pilots, keep in mind that a 2% dues payment on $100K or more is a lot more money than the 2% that we at the regional level contribute with our dues.
I would say it's doable, but the road we as a group would have to travel would be a tough one. Read Flying the Line vol1 to get an idea of what Behnke went through during the early years of ALPA; we would be in a similar predicament.
The idea has a lot of merit, nontheless.

Rekks

 

[ifly4food]

If the regionals broke away from ALPA, they would be eaten alive. Right now, ALPA is forced to protect you because of DFR. Loose that requirement, and it will be open season on us.

The RJDC lawsuit alleges a DFR violation, which ALPA denies. That allegation came about because ALPA allowed the Delta MEC to negotiate a scope policy restricting the deployment of "regional" jets without the input of the affected regional MECs. It's widely agreed among most everyone in the regional industry that ALPA screwed us in a major way with this (though not sure if it was illegal as Ford and Cooksey suggest). Point is, this happened while under ALPA's umbrella. Imagine how ALPA would have treated us if the law didn't force them to protect us. We would have found ourselves scoped back to Brasilias and Shorts 360s if the DMEC had its way a few yeard ago under Burgrey.

Additionally, as the above poster suggested, "RALPA" would go broke very quickly the first time a property had a drawn out contract negotiation or a strike. ALPA's MCF (war chest) holds about 50 million dollars and is earmarked solely for emergencies. This is what paid the CMR negotiations and the strike, and is soon going to fund the ASA negotiations (and possible strike). They just gave ASA $2 million. The weight of ALPA can't be beat when it comes to this sort of thing.

ALPA also does a lot in the area of safety and regulation. ALPA has the political clout in Washington to get things done. Nobody would take a union of "commuter" pilots seriously without ALPA's weight behind us.

 

[328dude]

Great, another RJDC thread!

 

[InclusiveScope]

If the regionals broke away from ALPA, they would be eaten alive. Right now, ALPA is forced to protect you because of DFR. Loose that requirement, and it will be open season on us.

The RJDC lawsuit alleges a DFR violation, which ALPA denies. That allegation came about because ALPA allowed the Delta MEC to negotiate a scope policy restricting the deployment of "regional" jets without the input of the affected regional MECs. It's widely agreed among most everyone in the regional industry that ALPA screwed us in a major way with this (though not sure if it was illegal as Ford and Cooksey suggest). Point is, this happened while under ALPA's umbrella. Imagine how ALPA would have treated us if the law didn't force them to protect us. We would have found ourselves scoped back to Brasilias and Shorts 360s if the DMEC had its way a few yeard ago under Burgrey.

Additionally, as the above poster suggested, "RALPA" would go broke very quickly the first time a property had a drawn out contract negotiation or a strike. ALPA's MCF (war chest) holds about 50 million dollars and is earmarked solely for emergencies. This is what paid the CMR negotiations and the strike, and is soon going to fund the ASA negotiations (and possible strike). They just gave ASA $2 million. The weight of ALPA can't be beat when it comes to this sort of thing.

ALPA also does a lot in the area of safety and regulation. ALPA has the political clout in Washington to get things done. Nobody would take a union of "commuter" pilots seriously without ALPA's weight behind us.

Ifly4food,
I largely agree with the first three paragraphs. It is your last paragraph, that while true in many respects, is a double edged sword for those at ASA.

I believe you and I both agree that the possiblity of an ASA strike is a very serious situation to the Delta corporation. It is an event that could push DAL into bankruptcy and thus could be huge leverage.

I also agree that as you say, ALPA has "political clout" in DC.

The double edged sword is that I do not see ALPA using it's "clout" to potentially bankrupt the carrier that is responsible for the majority of it's income. Allow me to explain. The Delta pilots are the single largest source of income to ALPA. ALPA is very much dependent on money. IMO ALPA will not push to harm it's number one source of income.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

We would have found ourselves scoped back to Brasiliasand Shorts 360s if the DMEC had its way a few yeard ago underBurgrey.

Heck, would that be so bad? I thought that is what we have beentrying to do - get the jets on mainline property. I sure as sh!!twould rather fly my RJ on a major's senority list than on my presentone.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Heck, would that be so bad? I thought that is what we have beentrying to do - get the jets on mainline property. I sure as sh!!twould rather fly my RJ on a major's senority list than on my presentone.

Capt. Caucasian,
Would that be as "good" as you think? The USAirways pilots have put the EMB170 on the mainline through the MidAtlantic alter-ego carrier. To do this, they had to lower the pay for this aircraft below that of Comair, ASA, and Horizon. In addition, they gave up their longevity to fly it at "mainline". They are flying it for less than Eagle pilots due to this lack of longevity.

What good does it do, to take the aircraft from us and move them to the mainline at lower rates? It just lowers our pay. Don't fall for ALPA's koolaid that this is for our own good. That is just not the case.

Frats,
Inclusivescope

 

[N8Dogg]

It is hard to imagine ALPA eating a Regional pilots union alive with non-ALPA companies like SkyWest out there expanding and doing just fine. With QOL, pay, bennefits, etc. reaching new lows on a daily basis it just doesn't seem like ALPA has very much influence anymore. Maybe now is the time to build some unity amongst the regional pilots because it appears that the majority won't be going anywhere soon. I am definately not an expert on this subject but it is just my $0.02

 

[InclusiveScope]

It is hard to imagine ALPA eating a Regional pilots union alive with non-ALPA companies like SkyWest out there expanding and doing just fine. With QOL, pay, bennefits, etc. reaching new lows on a daily basis it just doesn't seem like ALPA has very much influence anymore. Maybe now is the time to build some unity amongst the regional pilots because it appears that the majority won't be going anywhere soon. I am definately not an expert on this subject but it is just my $0.02

Just to add to your point N8Dogg, consider this. CHQ, Horizon, and SKYW are all paid better than Mesa and Express 1. CHQ, Horizon, and SKYW are not ALPA, while Mesa and Express 1 are ALPA. ALPA is not the panacea that some make it out to be.

 

[AlwaysLearning]

I dont mean to be the devils advocate, or be a mr negative, but RALPA will never happen. That being said, if it does ever happen I will gladly eat my words.

The reasons it won't happen are not because of lack of political clout in Washington (what has ALPA given is, we still work longer days per the regs than dispatchers, what gives). It's not because of money, it's because no one in the regionnal airline world is willing to stand up and make it work. Instead of all of us agreeing on across the boar QOL issues, pay issues, etc everyone would tear apart any decent chance at this getting off the ground with their own little whims. All the jet regionals would demand more money simply because they are flying a jet, everyone would want unreasonable QOL standards etc.

I'm not trying to bash anyone but reallisticaly threre are too many differences of opinions and egos floating around to get all or most of us under one roof. It seems, at my airline anyway, that MECs don't do anything anymore, they just "talk" with management and let obvious contract violations and safety issues go unfixed. If you are a nonleadership union member no one in the leadership role listens to you. I had Capt so irrate on the flightdeck because our LEC told him he whished everyone would stop comming to him (the LEC) with union and contract questions/problems. That is ridiculous, thats what they are there for. I truly believe these are the kinds of people that are in charge of most regionnals unions. Not to be a pecimist but these are the people that get these positions. Win a popularity contest and then don't do the job. Speak up about them and god forbid you make a mistake ever you're ass will be written up in a heartbeat (not being paranoid here).

That being said, I am all for a RALPA, if anyone is dead serious about it and doesn't have personnel gain as a motivation but betterment of all of our PROFESSIONAL lives and safety as a motivation. PM me, it has to start somewhere.

Sorry for the rant, and I wasn't singling anyone(thing) out I was simply making points.

AL

 

[ifly4food]

The double edged sword is that I do not see ALPA using it's "clout" to potentially bankrupt the carrier that is responsible for the majority of it's income. Allow me to explain. The Delta pilots are the single largest source of income to ALPA. ALPA is very much dependent on money. IMO ALPA will not push to harm it's number one source of income.

I think you may be on to something there. Things that make you go hmmm...

 

[AirBill]

Capt. Caucasian,
Would that be as "good" as you think? The USAirways pilots have put the EMB170 on the mainline through the MidAtlantic alter-ego carrier. To do this, they had to lower the pay for this aircraft below that of Comair, ASA, and Horizon.

Less than Chautauqua, too.

 

[E145Pilot]

All good points. I have read Flying the Line Vol. 1, and agree, all pilots need to read this book. It's amazing what Dave Behnke, et al went through to get us to where we are today. The sad thing is, it seems to be quickly slipping away, as our unions are weakened by alter-egos and the pitting of one connection/express/etc carrier against one another.

I also agree that ALPA doesn't have the regionals cornered, as many of you have pointed out, there are several "national" regionals out there that are not represented by ALPA. They have negotiated essentially the same contracts (given a few points here and there, and this is not to incite a discussion about who makes a few more bucks an hour, and who has better QOL) without ALPA. I am of the belief that we would actually have more clout if all regionals came under the same roof. The union would be dedicated to the best interests of regional pilots, and not to their higher paying counterparts at mainline. This is also not an attempt to make it an "us vs. them" with the mainline pilots, but for this growing segment of the industry to be able to provide any semblance of a career, in terms of pay/retirement/QOL/stability, we need more unified and dedicated representation.

There is undoubtedly value to regional pilots in the ALPA "war chest" as was proven when the Comair guys were out for their strike, and I believe that ASA is and will be soon benefiting from this as well. But consider this - One unified RALPA would also have a substantial amount of dues coming in. A "war chest" could be partially funded by a one time initiation fee to all regional pilots of carriers coming into the fold. I know we are all strapped for cash, but that is a financial goal that could easily be achieved. I'm not sure the numbers out there of regional pilots, but $50,000,000 is not an unattainable figure. And where there's money, there is clout despite many worrying of losing ALPA's political weight. We would have strength in numbers on our side, and would be better served to wipe out the management style of "if you don't take a pay cut, we will give 'your' airplanes to a competing carrier."

Sorry for the long thread, but this discussion is important, as I see this avenue as the best way for us to come together to improve our collective futures. Now that small mainline aircraft are on the property at "regional" airlines, many of us will not be moving onto the "majors." Now is the time to begin rebuilding the dignity and professional status of the airline pilot. No longer should ANY airline pilot, regardless of regional designation work for wages that qualify his family for food stamps. This has gone on far too long!

Keep the ideas coming. Begin talking with your fellow pilots, and let's get the ball rolling. As AlwaysLearning said, it has to start somewhere.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Aside from some other issues I see in the idea, I think you are severely over-estimating the ability to generate a significant dues income. Most small jet MEC's bring in much less than $1mm annually.
-Neal

 

[InclusiveScope]

Aside from some other issues I see in the idea, I think you are severely over-estimating the ability to generate a significant dues income. Most small jet MEC's bring in much less than $1mm annually.
-Neal

Neal,
I think you are over-estimating the value of generating significant dues income. SWAPA (Southwest Pilots) dues are 1% of their income and they are alone. They seem to do fine. Could it be that much of our increased dues income is waisted on bloated overhead and executive compensation? Does the President of ALPA need a total compensation package of over $500,000? I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but I bet that the total officer compensation is over 5% of the total budget. Money well spent considering the current race to the bottom?

Inclusivescope

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal,
I think you are over-estimating the value of generating significant dues income. SWAPA (Southwest Pilots) dues are 1% of their income and they are alone. They seem to do fine. Could it be that much of our increased dues income is waisted on bloated overhead and executive compensation? Does the President of ALPA need a total compensation package of over $500,000? I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but I bet that the total officer compensation is over 5% of the total budget. Money well spent considering the current race to the bottom?

Inclusivescope

IS,

The previous poster was talking about building a $50mm warchest. That couldn't be done as easily as he thought. While I might be over-estimating the value, I was making the point that us RJ drivers don't bring in as much money at 1.95% as we think....let alone a 1% deduction. Splitting off would only further the notion that a difference exists and I think that is counter-productive. I'm not here to debate the merits of ALPA National's executive compensation, etc, yada yada. Just wanted to point out that generating dues income won't be as easy as people think. There are merits to being on your own and merits to being a part of a national union. Both CAL ALPA and FDX ALPA recently decided they wanted to be a part of a national union. Having seen both sides, I'm glad we chose to leave IACP and go to ALPA.

-Neal

 

[InclusiveScope]

IS,

The previous poster was talking about building a $50mm warchest. That couldn't be done as easily as he thought. While I might be over-estimating the value, I was making the point that us RJ drivers don't bring in as much money at 1.95% as we think....let alone a 1% deduction. Splitting off would only further the notion that a difference exists and I think that is counter-productive. I'm not here to debate the merits of ALPA National's executive compensation, etc, yada yada. Just wanted to point out that generating dues income won't be as easy as people think. There are merits to being on your own and merits to being a part of a national union. Both CAL ALPA and FDX ALPA recently decided they wanted to be a part of a national union. Having seen both sides, I'm glad we chose to leave IACP and go to ALPA.

-Neal

Neal,
I'm glad you guys finally split from the mainline pilots. Many of us warned against the way ALPA lured you into joining as a single MEC with mainline.

I don't disagree with your point about the size of the war chest that is available. My point is what good is a large war chest when the whole idea of collective bargaining has been trumped by managements ability to bid out the flying? IMO, if you allow bidding for flying, you will see compensation continue to regress regardless of the size of the war chest.

I maintain that regardless of ALPA/Teamsters/Independent, large war chest, union/non-union, we will continue to see a reduction in pay and benefits as we all bid for the flying. The idea of unions and independent contractors do not mix regardless of how large your war chest is.

Inclusivescope

 

[E145Pilot]

The War Chest comment was in response to one part of a previous poster's words. I do like the discussion though. Of course we don't generate the kind of revenues that mainline does, but there could be other benefits. And as has been said, independent unions have been effective without having ALPA national's backing.

An all-inclusive regional union would need to be just that, all-inclusive. Essentially it's own national union with a large membership. The primary focus as you all have correctly identified would need to be keeping management from using us against each other.

Now, about how to do that . . . . . Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

OK, so the whole point of a "RALPA" is so regionals are not usedagainst each other? Yeah, I don't buy it. It doesn't work thatway. Many regionals that are pit against each other are alreadyin the same Union and it it does not do a lick of good.

And here is another fun one: The RJDC has their lawsuit because of asupposed DFR violation. That is because the mainline pilots and thefeeder pilots are part of the same national Union. Therefore, neitherpilot group can do anything that might hinder the other. Follow? I know it is not exactly that simple, but bare with me.

Now, if there is all of a sudden an ALPA and a RALPA there is no longera "duty of fair representation" problem. It now becomes open season onregional pilots and mainline pilots alike. The Civil War would havenothing on the blood bath that would ensue. And, just likethermo-nuclear war, there would be no "winners".

I hope everyone understood that, cause I'm not sure if I do .

Frats,

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

OK, OK, OK. I know that the format of my above post islacking. I have no clue why many of the spaces did not showup. I tried and I tried to edit them back in but to noavail. Sorry.

Frats,

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

JESUS D@MIT CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It happened again!!!!!

Once again, sorry.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal,
I'm glad you guys finally split from the mainline pilots. Many of us warned against the way ALPA lured you into joining as a single MEC with mainline.

IS,

ALPA didn't "lure us" into joining them as part of one MEC or two. At the time, I think XJT would have gone ALPA with or without a single MEC. ALPA National had nothing to do with the split into 2 MEC's and the politics involved are just way too deep to discuss on here but those politics were strictly at the MEC level. I know this from being very closely connected to those politics unfortunately. Drop me a line sometime and we can talk about it if you want.

I don't disagree with your point about the size of the war chest that is available. My point is what good is a large war chest when the whole idea of collective bargaining has been trumped by managements ability to bid out the flying? IMO, if you allow bidding for flying, you will see compensation continue to regress regardless of the size of the war chest.

I agree with you here. I think all of the mainline MEC's dropped the ball over 10 years ago with this airplane and have left us with this "lowest cost bidder" marketplace. It sucks but its real and its here and it isn't going anywhere - so we must deal with it. That is precisely why all of the SJP's have had round table discussions over the past few years, of which I have partaken in a few. Very enlightening and very positive discourse.

I maintain that regardless of ALPA/Teamsters/Independent, large war chest, union/non-union, we will continue to see a reduction in pay and benefits as we all bid for the flying. The idea of unions and independent contractors do not mix regardless of how large your war chest is.

I agree here as well....until all of us SJP's agree to not make pilot costs the sole determination of whether or not one company gets the bid versus another....but I also think that this has nothing to do with ALPA National and more to do with all of our peers banding together and making sure we are on the same page. Unfortunately, that didn't happen several years ago.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

OK, so the whole point of a "RALPA" is so regionals are not usedagainst each other? Yeah, I don't buy it. It doesn't work thatway. Many regionals that are pit against each other are alreadyin the same Union and it it does not do a lick of good.

And here is another fun one: The RJDC has their lawsuit because of asupposed DFR violation. That is because the mainline pilots and thefeeder pilots are part of the same national Union. Therefore, neitherpilot group can do anything that might hinder the other. Follow? I know it is not exactly that simple, but bare with me.

Now, if there is all of a sudden an ALPA and a RALPA there is no longera "duty of fair representation" problem. It now becomes open season onregional pilots and mainline pilots alike. The Civil War would havenothing on the blood bath that would ensue. And, just likethermo-nuclear war, there would be no "winners".

I hope everyone understood that, cause I'm not sure if I do .

Frats,

JT,

I wholeheartedly agree. Very impressive post. Shocked me actually.

-Neal

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

JT,

I wholeheartedly agree. Very impressive post. Shocked me actually.

-Neal

What happened? I blacked out there for a minute.