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And I know this is getting repetitive, but just one more:

http://accident-law.freeadvice.com/auto/negligence.htm

What is negligence?
A person is negligent when he/she fails to act like the standard Ordinary, Reasonable Person. Just how an "ordinary, reasonable person" is expected to act in a particular situation can be a gray area of the law. For example, an ordinary, reasonable person can travel down the highway at 60 miles per hour but if dense fog is present, the same ordinary, reasonable person may be expected to reduce his/her speed of travel to 40 miles per hour. The determination of whether a person has met his/her standard is often resolved by a jury after presentation of evidence and argument at trial.
 
I think any of us could find examples all day long of overzealous prosecutors trying to stretch the law. But I think the post was about a trend developing in the U.S. of trying pilots for criminal acts in accidents. This has not happened very much in this country, unlike in other countries.

But I applaud you for all the research you did.

AK
 
No, I dont think its that simple at all. Rape is not under any FARs that I know of!! #2 How can a state regulate what is careless flying when the airspace is controlled by the feds??

Weather rape or any other crime is considered under the administrative regulations (United States Code of Fedeal Regulations) or not isn't relevant to a criminal case. If the crime took place, it falls under criminal law...not just administrative law.

The regulations you think of as the "FARs" are administrative law. Regulations, really, prescribed by the same body that interprets and enforces them. Not so with criminal law. This is "real" law, and it always has hold over you. Don't think that because your wheels don't touch the ground, you're exempt from criminal law.

You've completely neglected to consider civil law. This is the law regarding weather the estate of the deceased may sue or bring a lawsuit. Yes, they may. They can do whatever they like. The "FARs" have no bearing on their ability to sue or win. The FAA may take it's recourse in certicate action and sanctions within the scope of their administrative authority. They may also seek civil sanctions in the form of fines, and have the ability to press for criminal prosecution, also.

However, the FAA doesn't have the corner on the market with respect to prosecution. Commit a criminal act with an airplane, rest assured that you stand a very high probability of being caught, and being tried by an authority that makes its business of doing so in the criminal court. In this case, the State of Florida is pressing criminal charges. This isn't new, it isn't a new trend, and it's always been possible.

In this case, a pilot disregarded safety and made a low pass, striking and killing someone in the air. Had he distracted a motorist who lost control and died or killed someone, chances are he would be facing the same prosecution.

Several years ago I was on a skydive at DeLand which was commemorating the Drop Zone Owners (DZO) birthday. At the conclusion of that skydive, as I was approaching the landing area outside the drop zone buildings, the jump aircraft made a low pass just beneath me. I was setting up to land and didn't see him coming. I only saw him pass directly beneath me. We were close enough that upon landing his wake interfered with my canopy and I had a hard landing. I was not happy with his decision to make that pass, or that act. It goes on all the time, but that doesn't justify the act. Had he struck me or anybody else, I'd be very much for criminal charges.

The airspace is regulated in operation by the FAA. However, the FAA by no means has the corner on the authority to prosecute for criminal acts. Merely because something isn't mentioned in the "FAR's" doesn't mean there isn't a law against it. The FAA has 91.13 and a host of other regulations available to take certificate action against the pilot, but the pilot has also vioalted state and federal laws, and an injury and death has occured as the result.

The pilot is going to find himself dealing with civil, criminal, and administrative law, and that's all there is to it. This isn't a new, disturbing trend. It isn't the first time, and it won't be the last. He decided to have some fun, and killed a jumper. That's a criminal act, and should be treated like one.

If the pilot flew into the jumper on purpose I could see him being charged, but if he didn't do it on purpose, then this is a very dangerous direction for all of us.

Ah, so it's okay to kill someone by mistake. So long as we don't intend for someone to die, we should just chalk it up to experience? Someone commits a dangerous, stupid act and kills someone, and you think prosecuting them for the death is dangerous to the rest of us?

Hello! This is reality...welcome. Don't let it shock your system.

Also by skydiving you are already putting your life at risk and it does happen when jumpers and planes collide.

I'm not putting my life at risk when I skydive. I'm engaging in a sport that's recognized worldwide, and from which I have every reasonable expectation of walking away. I have a legitimate privilege and right to engage in and accept responsibility for my actions, my pack job, in freefall, and as a canopy pilot when landing.

You cannot compare a skydive, with being struck by a careless pilot making a reckless act, in a place he shouldn't be, below an altitude where he should be, while violating numerous regulations. You might as well compare bull horns to chicken eggs...there is no comparison between the two.

By your logic, then, it's okay to put a .308 bullet through the skull of a NASCAR driver during a race. After all, he could crash and get hurt or killed anyway, so why not just do what nature might otherwise do? Or how about this...everybody is going to die anyway, so what's the harm in killing anyone, outright? Kill them all, right?

Your logic defies reason, even childish reason.


But my main reason for posting this is lets say your flying a Challenger out of PBI and 10kts prior to V1 a tire burst and you go off the rwy and someone gets killed. Now will someone say hey you didnt do a good enough preflight on those tires, we are going to charge you with manslaughter?

Again, your logic is severely fouled. An equipment failure that causes an accident or incident is not the same as flying an airplane directly at someone and striking them, severing their legs, and killing them. Not at all. You might have a better chance at comparison if you put someone on the runway directly in front of the challenger and then began the takeoff roll, and struck the person standing on the runway. Except that even then, the person on the runway would still be out of place. But not the skydiver, on a legitimate skydive, setting up to land (who incidentally has the legal right of way). It was the airplane committing a dangerous act, which resulted in a criminal act...in this case pick your poison. Negligent homicide, manslaughter, or so on.

What about all the paperwork you sign before you jump saying you can't sue anyone if you die?? I guess there isn't anything that says the government can't charge you with a death or injury?

A fundamental rule is that you can't sign away the rights of your estate. Your estate doesn't exist until you are dead. Once you die, your estate comes into being, and the rights and privileges of your estate are not bound by your covenant not to sue. The waiver may say you promise your estate won't sue, but it's meaningless, because your estate does not exist, and you cannot sign for the estate where it does not exist. This isn't a living will and testament.

If you violate a law, you can be charged, period. Why is that so hard for every one to understand??
 
AngelKing said:
I think any of us could find examples all day long of overzealous prosecutors trying to stretch the law. But I think the post was about a trend developing in the U.S. of trying pilots for criminal acts in accidents. This has not happened very much in this country, unlike in other countries.

But I applaud you for all the research you did.

AK
There isn't a trend, most of these laws are new, that's why you're just starting to see them being used. And there isn't any stretching being done by prosecutors...kill or injure somone negligently, whether it's with your boat, car or airplane and you will find yourself prosecuted.
 
Avbug, take a rest. I didn't say it was ok to kill someone by accident. But there is a big difference in just flying along minding your business and a skydiver winds up in front of you, to aiming at someone and hitting them.

And as I stated earlier, I wasn't very familiar with the accident. What "dangerous, stupid act" was the pilot performing?

Can't you make an intelligent post without belittling the original poster or is that the only way you can make an argument?

AK
 
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Avbug, take a rest. I didn't say it was ok to kill someone by accident. But there is a big difference in just flying along minding your business and a skydiver winds up in front of you, to aiming at someone and hitting them.

Drunk drivers sometimes take the stand that they're merely driving along, and a telephone poll or a lady pushing a baby carriage jump out in front of them.

"Just flying along minding your own business and a skydiver winds up in front of you?" This pilot was buzzing a drop zone, making passes through the landing area for skydivers under canopy. It's the same aircraft that dropped the skydivers. The jumper that was killed exited the airplane that killed him. I don't see any way the pilot could possibly argue that he was surprised by the presence of the jumpers, or that he was merely flying along minding his own business. Do you??

If I decide to race my car through a crowded schoolyard full of children, one might guess I'd be charged with a crime...especially if I hit one. Likewise, if one decides to buzz a drop zone filled with jumpers under canopy and strikes one, then one might presume that this isn't a matter of flying along "minding one's own business" and striking a wayward jumper who just happened to be in the sky. Especially if one is the person who dropped that jumper. Go figure.

Careless and reckless operation that endangers persons and property in the air, and on the ground. Proximity to persons or property on the surface. With a NOTAM published for jumpers, having dropped the jumpers, buzzing the landing spot for those under canopy, while they're under canopy.

If you'd read my post, I noted that this same thing happened to me at that drop zone...only I wasn't struck. As you might suppose, mine isn't a passing interest...neither is that of others on the board who knew the pilot and the jumper involved.

Can't you make an intelligent post without belittling the original poster or is that the only way you can make an argument?

The original poster makes some increadibly stupid statements, and then continually defends them. I think the comments are warranted. That's the reason I made them. Perhaps before you respond with the foolish observation you did, you'll learn more about the situation, too.
 
I also said I was not familiar with the case. If he was doing what you said then I agree he should be prosecuted. And I wasn't alking about drunk drivers, I also think they should be prosecuted.

You do make some good points in your post. But you negate them with your vile attitude towards anyone who says something you don't agree with.

To put a twist on an old quote:

"I have read all of Duke Elegants post, and you sir, are no Duke Elegant"

AK
 
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You think that's vile? Don't get me started. That was kind.

I never tried to be Duke Elegant...don't intend to start.

Grow some thicker skin and read the subject before you post. That wil save from ignorantly posting and then becoming offended at the replies.
 
Luckily swass has arrived to elevate the conversation and contribute something to the thread...again :rolleyes: .

Your inability to add something meaningful speaks volumes. Thanks for playing.
 
Avbug, I have always tried to post as if I was talking to the person face to face even if I didn't agree with them. You should learn to do the same. But then, either you have class, or you don't.

AK
 
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Avvy, how come most people feel the same way I do? Just look at how many tiffs you've had lately. You are a very abrasive person, at least online. No wonder you have had a rocky personal past in relationships (according to you). I wonder why.

Must be fun to sit shoulder to shoulder with you for extended periods of time. LOL. Smoochy smooch.

Prick.
 
And now for something entirely different...

The alleged beach-buzzing pilot who sent scores of Santa Cruz sun bathers scrambling last May is facing misdemeanor charges for the stunt.

Santa Cruz District Attorney Bob Lee announced that Kenneth Walter Yanz has been charged with reckless flying and flying an aircraft at an altitude deemed unsafe by the Federal Aviation Administration.

The decision to prosecute Yanz came after prosecutors review the findings of a lengthy investigation by the FAA, which recently suspended Yanz' third-class pilot's license, the DA's office said.

Beach-goers near the Santa Cruz boardwalk and near Seacliff dived into the sand and otherwise scrambled to safety on the warm afternoon of May 24, when the pilot of a small 1979 Cessna plane swooped down from the sky and, according to witnesses, came within a few feet of hitting people on the crowded beaches.

Yanz is scheduled for arraignment late next month.

No biographical information about Yanz was provided in a news release from the district attorney's office, but according to the FAA's online pilot's directory, the only pilot with that name has an address in Corning, which is in Tehama County.

Yanz could not be reached for comment.
 
avbug said:
"Just flying along minding your own business and a skydiver winds up in front of you?" This pilot was buzzing a drop zone, making passes through the landing area for skydivers under canopy. It's the same aircraft that dropped the skydivers. The jumper that was killed exited the airplane that killed him. I don't see any way the pilot could possibly argue that he was surprised by the presence of the jumpers, or that he was merely flying along minding his own business. Do you??

I agree, this pilot did something that he shouldn't have done in making a low pass when he could assume that jumpers were still in the air.

Lets say, though, you are flying along VFR at 4500 feet, in class E airspace, enjoying the day, not talking to anyone when a jumper descends directly in front of you. There is nothing that you can do to avoid hitting him, and you do, killing him. You land ASAP and report what happened. Should you be prosecuted for that? If the jump zone wasn't NOTAM'd? You are not required to be talking to anyone, and seeing a jumper from a moving airplane isn't that easy a thing to do.
 

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