Questions about ALPA and it's history

[shooter]

Posted by maru657 in thread - Pilots, White Collar or Blue Collar -

The profession has always been blue collar but at least it once had a strong national union. Govt; control of jumpseats? no way, Pilots and flight crews going through security? not a chance. At one time ALPA was strong enough to shut the country down. Now it's just a lip service organization with no real agenda or strength. The pilots hired by secretarys at the few majors have had no reason to complain in the past or risk any job satisfaction supporting the pilots at other carriers. Now pay and benefits are being cut across the line and job satisfaction is pretty much gone. Good, it probably won't get better until it hits rock bottom and we're closing on that target fast. Prior to the "blue flue" episode at AA, 75% of allied political donations went to republicans. I'm not saying there weren't plenty of useless idiots within the democratic party, but their platform didn't call for the destruction of unions. So, given the opportunity. I'd scab Allied tomorrow. I figure they supported an anti union agenda in the past when they thought they were bullet proof so as the saying goes, "you can't scab a scab".

I liked this post, but it made me ask a lot of questions about ALPA and the history of how it was created.
I am not in a union and the only experience I have with unions are the traditional trade unions which support a national group of members, not just within an airline like all the aviation unions do. I am sure all of you know the difference between them. The main difference is in a traditional union all of the Locals support a national organization (like ALPA), but the members are always given credit for their life’s work within the industry while in the union. In an aviation union you have to start from rock bottom at every airline you go to work for. While I agree that works for bidding and vacations, but the pay scale is start too which makes ALPA look like a small union that has the mentality to support only the workers at a particular airline, not the national group as a whole. As a result, you have all pilots of all airlines battling with each other and the industry and as the post above states; "you can't scab a scab". Unless you are not in a union any longer, how would this be possible in the first place if ALPA were there for the interest of all its members? If an airline wants to be a bottom feeder, ALPA should not let the group negotiate a pay and benefit package that would pit that group against another ALPA carrier. Which is exactly what would happen because the cost to operate one from the other would be different from the start of each workday.
I do not want to offend any work group here, I am only asking why ALPA was set up this way and how each of you would join an organization that seems set up to do exactly what I hear a lot of complaints about. In a traditional labor union, you have an apprentice, journeyman and every other title pay and years of experience set up from day one and it follows you around to every part of the country to every union employer you go to work for.
Why was ALPA not set up in that way that is older, more experienced and proven to work?
Not a flame post. I only want to know how and why ALPA was set up this way.
Please only respond with serious answers and other questions because that’s why I am asking.
Please do not respond with hate or an anti/pro union response and agenda. This is not a post to start an argument.
I am only trying to get answers to questions I have and how we get the industry in the shape it is in after 1 terrorist attack and 1 hurricane. Not that that’s not enough, but the industry seems to be at war with each airline out to kill the other, which is self serving and not what unions were originally formed for. As long as it was a union job, etc. etc. etc… You NEVER hear that in the airline industry. Why?

 

[maru657]

Shortsightedness, Greed, I've got mine. Those are the typical answers to the problems faced by ALPA today and from the very beginning. I was fortunate to know one of the original members of ALPA and a former MEC chairman and maybe this is the best we can hope for, but if it is ALPA will continue to lose any strength or authority it ever had. Why should I support a so-called union at any other carrier when the ALPA membership list itself is full of former scabs. Read, Flying the line, it's fairly accurate except it skips over certain embarrassing periods such as the strike at Southern Airways and it's aftermath. It doesn't address the stupidity that led to that strike either. Or later incidents when ALPA refused to support PATCO. It may be hopeless but then I figure if things get bad enough at least people will try and It sure looks like were on the way there.

 

[JP4user]

ALPA has turned into a pathetic excuse for a labor union.

 

[shooter]

Shortsightedness, Greed, I've got mine. Those are the typical answers to the problems faced by ALPA today and from the very beginning. I was fortunate to know one of the original members of ALPA and a former MEC chairman and maybe this is the best we can hope for, but if it is ALPA will continue to lose any strength or authority it ever had. Why should I support a so-called union at any other carrier when the ALPA membership list itself is full of former scabs. Read, Flying the line, it's fairly accurate except it skips over certain embarrassing periods such as the strike at Southern Airways and it's aftermath. It doesn't address the stupidity that led to that strike either. Or later incidents when ALPA refused to support PATCO. It may be hopeless but then I figure if things get bad enough at least people will try and It sure looks like were on the way there.

Whats PATCO? Like I said, I do not know much about how and why aviation unions were created. Thanks for the recommend "Flying the Line". I'll check it out.

I just want to add it's all aviation unions, not just the pilots. The Mechanics, Dispatchers, Flight Attendants, Ground workers.....they all do the same thing that pits all airlines against each other. Just want to know; what gives?

 

[Tejas-Jet]

ALPA has turned into a pathetic excuse for a labor union.

Really??? What about the membership? At one legacy in BK, you had over 55% vote for the most awful contract they have ever had.

How good do you think a labor action with only 45% participation would go over with mgmt? Worse yet, how about a strike vote that came back with only 45% wanting to go out.

Think the MEC would want that made public? When the same 20 pilots attend the LEC meetings, you aren't gonna get much from the National office when they know your LEC members don't care enough to come to the meetings.

Tejas

 

[JP4user]

Really??? What about the membership? At one legacy in BK, you had over 55% vote for the most awful contract they have ever had.

How good do you think a labor action with only 45% participation would go over with mgmt? Worse yet, how about a strike vote that came back with only 45% wanting to go out.

Think the MEC would want that made public? When the same 20 pilots attend the LEC meetings, you aren't gonna get much from the National office when they know your LEC members don't care enough to come to the meetings.

Tejas

Agreed. But what is breeding the apathy? I believe it is due to the lack of direction and greed under Woerth's tenure trickling down to some of the most weak and spineless MEC's in ALPA's history.

 

[JP4user]

Whats PATCO? Like I said, I do not know much about how and why aviation unions were created. Thanks for the recommend "Flying the Line". I'll check it out.

I just want to add it's all aviation unions, not just the pilots. The Mechanics, Dispatchers, Flight Attendants, Ground workers.....they all do the same thing that pits all airlines against each other. Just want to know; what gives?

PATCO Professional Air Traffic Contollers Organization. They struck during the Reagan administration and he fired them all.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Get it right!

PATCO Professional Air Traffic Contollers Organization. They struck during the Reagan administration and he fired them all.

Lets tell the whole story here. PATCO was a union that represented an organization that was not authorized to act under the RLA nor the NLRB. All PATCO members were Government employees (GS or WG) and are forbidden by law to strike. It would be the same thing if the military were to strike. Reagan repeatedly warned the union that he would indeed fire all of the striking employees. Why do you suppose that there were no union actions or law suits that got the controllers their jobs back? They had no recourse. Federal employees CAN NOT STRIKE! Period!!:angryfire

 

[maru657]

OK, Here's more of the real story. During his campaign, Reagan promised to support the Patco members during his administration. Of course after getting the job with the support of Patco members, he changed a lot of the work rules, almost forcing them into a strike. The excuse by a lot of pilots that Patco was a govt; union so they didn't have the right to strike and pilots didn't have to honor a picket line, later came back to haunt them at Continental and Eastern. Some of the line crossers at Continental and Eastern were former air traffic controllers with pilot's licenses.
Later during the Clinton administration, many of the fired controllers were re-hired.

 

[JP4user]

PATCO Professional Air Traffic Contollers Organization. They struck during the Reagan administration and he fired them all.

Lets tell the whole story here. PATCO was a union that represented an organization that was not authorized to act under the RLA nor the NLRB. All PATCO members were Government employees (GS or WG) and are forbidden by law to strike. It would be the same thing if the military were to strike. Reagan repeatedly warned the union that he would indeed fire all of the striking employees. Why do you suppose that there were no union actions or law suits that got the controllers their jobs back? They had no recourse. Federal employees CAN NOT STRIKE! Period!!:angryfire

Did they strike? Yes

Did Reagan fire them all? Yes

Please tell me which part of my answer is false even with your expanded explanation.

 

[brainhurts]

Did they strike? Yes

Did Reagan fire them all? Yes

Please tell me which part of my answer is false even with your expanded explanation.

He said:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/images/icons/icon21.gif Get it right!
PATCO Professional Air Traffic Contollers Organization. They struck during the Reagan administration and he fired them all.

Lets tell the whole story here. PATCO was a union that represented an organization that was not authorized to act under the RLA nor the NLRB. All PATCO members were Government employees (GS or WG) and are forbidden by law to strike. It would be the same thing if the military were to strike. Reagan repeatedly warned the union that he would indeed fire all of the striking employees. Why do you suppose that there were no union actions or law suits that got the controllers their jobs back? They had no recourse. Federal employees CAN NOT STRIKE! Period!!:angryfire

This sounds to me like he wants the whole story and for you to get it right vs. wrong (different than false) and that your explanation did not give the whole story. Not that your post was incorrect per se.

 

[81Horse]

... Later during the Clinton administration, many of the fired controllers were re-hired. ...

Some. Some were rehired.

 

[maru657]

Yep, Some were re-hired. There were a lot of reasons that not all were re-hired. Not all wanted to go back to that career, some couldn't re-qualify, Lots of reasons.
I'll vote for Lou Dobbs.

 

[81Horse]

Okay -- you, me, my Spouse. It's a Dobbs landslide!

Another reason re: PATCO rehires. The window of opportunity for getting on the rehire register was about 15 nanoseconds; after that, hey -- presto! -- screwed again. Who knew there even was a rehire "register"?

 

[PCL_128]

Agreed. But what is breeding the apathy? I believe it is due to the lack of direction and greed under Woerth's tenure trickling down to some of the most weak and spineless MEC's in ALPA's history.

This idea that membership apathy is something new just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. ALPA just completed a study a few months ago that researched attendance records, voting participation, etc... of the ALPA membership throughout the Association's history. The result? Membership attendance and participation is no different now than it's ever been. Pilots have always been apathetic and clueless about the Association. I would wager that less than 10% of the membership is even aware that the BOD meeting is this year, despite the fact that it's been sent out in Fastreads, MEC newsletters at many airlines, Air Line Pilot magazine, etc... Pilots are just too lazy to get involved in their union. If you want to "fix" ALPA, then start with the membership. ALPA can only do so much. We can't force the membership to read and get informed.

 

[PHXFLYR]

OK, Here's more of the real story. During his campaign, Reagan promised to support the Patco members during his administration. Of course after getting the job with the support of Patco members, he changed a lot of the work rules, almost forcing them into a strike. The excuse by a lot of pilots that Patco was a govt; union so they didn't have the right to strike and pilots didn't have to honor a picket line, later came back to haunt them at Continental and Eastern. Some of the line crossers at Continental and Eastern were former air traffic controllers with pilot's licenses.
Later during the Clinton administration, many of the fired controllers were re-hired.

But they did not get hired back as controllers. The 2 that I knew that did get hired back were hired as Aviation Safety Inspectors.


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

This idea that membership apathy is something new just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. ALPA just completed a study a few months ago that researched attendance records, voting participation, etc... of the ALPA membership throughout the Association's history. The result? Membership attendance and participation is no different now than it's ever been. Pilots have always been apathetic and clueless about the Association. I would wager that less than 10% of the membership is even aware that the BOD meeting is this year, despite the fact that it's been sent out in Fastreads, MEC newsletters at many airlines, Air Line Pilot magazine, etc... Pilots are just too lazy to get involved in their union. If you want to "fix" ALPA, then start with the membership. ALPA can only do so much. We can't force the membership to read and get informed.

Kind of difficult to get involved with an organization when your local status reps and merger comittee people don't even take the time to return your phone calls. Next time there is a de-certification drive on our property, I'm going to listen a little more carefully to what "the other side" has to say and weigh my options a little more carefully.......

PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

This idea that membership apathy is something new just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. ALPA just completed a study a few months ago that researched attendance records, voting participation, etc... of the ALPA membership throughout the Association's history. The result? Membership attendance and participation is no different now than it's ever been. Pilots have always been apathetic and clueless about the Association. I would wager that less than 10% of the membership is even aware that the BOD meeting is this year, despite the fact that it's been sent out in Fastreads, MEC newsletters at many airlines, Air Line Pilot magazine, etc... Pilots are just too lazy to get involved in their union. If you want to "fix" ALPA, then start with the membership. ALPA can only do so much. We can't force the membership to read and get informed.

......................................

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This idea that membership apathy is something new just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. ALPA just completed a study a few months ago that researched attendance records, voting participation, etc... of the ALPA membership throughout the Association's history. The result? Membership attendance and participation is no different now than it's ever been. Pilots have always been apathetic and clueless about the Association. I would wager that less than 10% of the membership is even aware that the BOD meeting is this year, despite the fact that it's been sent out in Fastreads, MEC newsletters at many airlines, Air Line Pilot magazine, etc... Pilots are just too lazy to get involved in their union. If you want to "fix" ALPA, then start with the membership. ALPA can only do so much. We can't force the membership to read and get informed.

Yeah...what he said......

JP4User... I've got repsect for you.... I only hope that more guys figure it out before they retire and envoke change....

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Kind of difficult to get involved with an organization when your local status reps and merger comittee people don't even take the time to return your phone calls. Next time there is a de-certification drive on our property, I'm going to listen a little more carefully to what "the other side" has to say and weigh my options a little more carefully.......

Whats keeping you from getting a recall motion going for your next LEC meeting? Too much work?

Tejas

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Agreed. But what is breeding the apathy? I believe it is due to the lack of direction and greed under Woerth's tenure trickling down to some of the most weak and spineless MEC's in ALPA's history.

And the "weak and spineless" are who you have voted in as your elected LEC and MEC....right? Are there no leaders in your pilot group?

Tejas

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Posted by maru657 in thread - Pilots, White Collar or Blue Collar -



I liked this post, but it made me ask a lot of questions about ALPA and the history of how it was created.

I do not want to offend any work group here, I am only asking why ALPA was set up this way I am only trying to get answers to questions I have and how we get the industry in the shape it is in after 1 terrorist attack and 1 hurricane. Not that that’s not enough, but the industry seems to be at war with each airline out to kill the other, which is self serving and not what unions were originally formed for. As long as it was a union job, etc. etc. etc… You NEVER hear that in the airline industry. Why?

Shooter.....

Not sure why you want to ask..... Why ALPA....

It is much deeper than that....

It is the culture and the way "things" are in the USA.....

Most pilots are supporters of unbridled free market economy.... Well that is exactly what is happening with the current concessionary contracts. The free market system is adjusting appropriately... its just too bad Air Line Pilots have to take pay cuts.

The Railway Labor Act or RLA.

After you read Flying the Line Vol I & II, read up on the RLA. www.nmb.gov

The RLA is the federal code in which the Air Lines must operate. Sadly, like PCL128 said, only 10% of Air Line Pilots even know about it... if that.

The RLA basically keeps the air line operation moving by preventing labor from shutting it down, both individually and collectively.

Individually- if a pilot refuses to operate a flight he must have a safety issue or an FAR clearly in his/favor. This is where 'fly it and grieve it' comes into play. Many pilots belive they can "interpret" thier contracts the way they think it should read and refuse to fly. If you think about it, it would create operational headaches and nightmares..

Collectivley- the National Mediation Board controls who and when strikes will occur. Remember, the airline industry is considered vital to the economy and labor will not slow it down. Maybe in Europe, where cultures and tolerance of labor is greater.....

But in the good ol' USA, the men in power will not stand for labor shutting down their money generating machines, and they have codified it in the Federal Code of Regulations.


As you can see it is very much bigger than ALPA and its 60,000 pilots.


One of the dark truths at the heart of free-market capitalism: the unblinking willingness of those in power to crush--physically and spiritually--those who work.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Kind of difficult to get involved with an organization when your local status reps and merger comittee people don't even take the time to return your phone calls. Next time there is a de-certification drive on our property, I'm going to listen a little more carefully to what "the other side" has to say and weigh my options a little more carefully.......

PHXFLYR

Do you have the courage to tell us if you particpated in the election of these Reps? and if you did vote no for them, then embrace democracy, which includes your ability recall them. The C&BL are clear. Now I will tell you that you must be politically competent to run a recall and if you do recall, then you should have a replacement in mind. (dare I say, look in the mirror! ) Nothing worse than creating a power vacuum.

Sure this whole democracy and take ownership of your career, is work, but do you really expect to be coddled and cared for?

 

[pylut]

alpo is a power vacuum.

 

[pylut]

by the way Rez, you're slipping. It took 19 post for you to start waiving your alpa pom poms.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Whats keeping you from getting a recall motion going for your next LEC meeting? Too much work?

Tejas

We did that already,on several occasions no less. Didn't seem to make a hill- of-beans difference. I don't know whether its the folks that we put in there or the lack of unity I see in our pilot group. Either way,things need to get better...... and soon.


PHXFLYR

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

by the way Rez, you're slipping. It took 19 post for you to start waiving your alpa pom poms.

I was on a 6 days of reserve... thier not pom poms.....its a mirror.....

 

[FDJ2]

Nevermind.

 

[shooter]

Shooter.....

Not sure why you want to ask..... Why ALPA....

It is much deeper than that....

It is the culture and the way "things" are in the USA.....

Most pilots are supporters of unbridled free market economy.... Well that is exactly what is happening with the current concessionary contracts. The free market system is adjusting appropriately... its just too bad Air Line Pilots have to take pay cuts.

The Railway Labor Act or RLA.

After you read Flying the Line Vol I & II, read up on the RLA. www.nmb.gov

The RLA is the federal code in which the Air Lines must operate. Sadly, like PCL128 said, only 10% of Air Line Pilots even know about it... if that.

The RLA basically keeps the air line operation moving by preventing labor from shutting it down, both individually and collectively.

Individually- if a pilot refuses to operate a flight he must have a safety issue or an FAR clearly in his/favor. This is where 'fly it and grieve it' comes into play. Many pilots belive they can "interpret" thier contracts the way they think it should read and refuse to fly. If you think about it, it would create operational headaches and nightmares..

Collectivley- the National Mediation Board controls who and when strikes will occur. Remember, the airline industry is considered vital to the economy and labor will not slow it down. Maybe in Europe, where cultures and tolerance of labor is greater.....

But in the good ol' USA, the men in power will not stand for labor shutting down their money generating machines, and they have codified it in the Federal Code of Regulations.


As you can see it is very much bigger than ALPA and its 60,000 pilots.


One of the dark truths at the heart of free-market capitalism: the unblinking willingness of those in power to crush--physically and spiritually--those who work.

I agree it is much bigger than ALPA, but does the RLA prevent pilots unions from working like the traditional labor unions? I feel the top brass is using the pilot groups against each other and I read a lot of posts that seem to prove just that. However, if the pilots were part of a group larger than just their airline, where the board was level for all members, this would not be allowed to happen without every pilot of every union airline having a vote. As far as the free market, the aviation industry is no different from other trade labor groups that are in the free market. Like I said though, I do not know if the RLA prevents this from being the case. thanks for your input, now I have more to read up on. Better stop before all my free time goes to reading.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I agree it is much bigger than ALPA, but does the RLA prevent pilots unions from working like the traditional labor unions?

Yes it does, I believe.

Many pilots love to point at the long shoreman in CA or the NYC Transit workers and the work stoppages they conducted. They even think going illegal is justified, a little civil disobedience might be just what we need.

I am not sure the traveling public wants jailed Air Line Pilots flying them around. How many pilots are willing to go to the unknown and spend time in jail? Not knowing if they will ever get a SIDA badge again. Oh they talk tough...

In addition, why should the FedEx and UPS pilots conduct sympathy strikes? All is well in the cargo world. Really what is better is if FedEx and UPS can get good contracts so we can whipsaw management when the cycle returns in our favor...

In addition, the players in WashDC, where the Agenda of the The Air Line Pilots Association is addressed, don't want to to deal with union thugs. ALPA has a good relationship with thier allys and enemies. Let's keep it that way. You can't represent pilots from the parking lot. You must continously be invited to the table of change and policy.

The down side to a coopertive relationships is it clashes with our culture of instant gratification and one hit wonders. ALPA effectiveness is like Warren Buffetts investment strategy: slow, deliberate and long term.

I feel the top brass is using the pilot groups against each other and I read a lot of posts that seem to prove just that.

However, when economic times are good, the tables are turned and the pilots group use each other to "whipsaw" managmeent to a better contract. DAL did this with UALs incredible contract.

The problem is many pilots what to see action and changes NOW! If we create new policy for our current environment, like a National Seniority List and National Payscales, when the growth returns these "implementations" will work againsts us. We have to look long term. Short term polices are for CEOs, not Air Line Pilots.

The whipsaw is double edged.....

Speaking of double edge.... Pilots want everyone but themselves to fall on thier sword and save the profession. Sure they want the ALPA President to stop signing these low ball contracts, but lets remember, the membership voted on these contracts and democracy rules. (DW has refused to sign a few contracts..... BTW)

now I have more to read up on. Better stop before all my free time goes to reading.

Shooter, I am a huge advocate of education, reading and free thought. It is too bad that pilots allow themsleves to be crack hoes on welfare when it comes to thier education and information....