Question for PC-12 operators...

[Redman]

Dealing with real rough numbers, how many hours do figure you need to charter to start making a profit after factoring in your operational costs to include the pilot? Again just trying to get ballpark numbers.

Thanks in advance.

 

[wooferdog]

Most PC-12 charter operators are leasing theirs on a "per hour" basis from the owner.

Of course, the owner is taking advantage of the bonus depreciation.

At $25-35K per month, the numbers do not come out unless the lessor provides it on a per hour basis.

 

[100-1/2]

Why?

If you are buying new, it will never get to you before you go broke making payments on the loan for the deposits and most factory maintenance shops will rob you blind after you get it.

If you are buying used, the market is very slim and most are retreads from recent years of operators figuring out the maintenance robs you blind and the advertising numbers for operating cost just do not add up.

I did it, loved the airplane, performance, multi-mission capability and ran profitably even with the down time from Pilatus Authorized shops that cater to the Part 91 operation that could schedule 100hr/annuals 6 weeks out. I won't name names, but their initials are Sky-Tech.

Margins are slimmer along with mission capabilities, BUT,

You can get a BE 200 and a Caravan for the cost of 1 Pilatus. and have a much greater maintenance flexibility on the road and both aircraft working at the same time. Pilatus, while great is overrated and overpriced due to an inflated demand compliments of only 40 to 60 manufacturing positions annually. At last check, first available slot is Spring 2009.

Go ahead cf, fire away.

100-1/2

 

[Geronimo4497]

Pilatus built 90 PC-12s last year. 90 next year. 115 in 2009.

I would like to see how one can buy a 5 year old King Air and a 'Van for the same cost as a PC-12. Fuzzy math there. :laugh: A ratted out high time '80s King Air perhaps, but there is just no way with a newer one. Your problem was that you did not come up to Atlas in NH for your scheduled inspections!

I am concerned about them pricing themselves out of the market, however. Close to 4mil for the next generation airplane.

 

[Redman]

Thanks for the replies guys. I have someone looking to buy for personal use, but lease back for charter. Probably looking at a used one and as I am finding out, it is a slim market indeed. The owner will only fly about 20 hours a month, so, again, just trying to get a feel for how much charter work it would need to fly to pay for itself and maybe make a few bucks.

 

[xrated]

Thanks for the replies guys. I have someone looking to buy for personal use, but lease back for charter. Probably looking at a used one and as I am finding out, it is a slim market indeed. The owner will only fly about 20 hours a month, so, again, just trying to get a feel for how much charter work it would need to fly to pay for itself and maybe make a few bucks.

So basically what you're saying is this "someone" can't afford the airplane and is looking for a way to fly on a private airplane without having to pay for it!

If it were that easy we'd all be flying on Gulfstreams.

Hope you don't work for this "someone".

 

[Redman]

Ummmm no. He just wants to try and make it more of an economic tool than a toy. Pretty common from my experience. But thanks for your pearls of wisdom.

 

[xrated]

Pretty common from my experience. But thanks for your pearls of wisdom.

Oh, ok. No problem. I guess you've seen a lot of people making money in airplanes with your regional experience.

I'm just saying with my 10 years of 135/91 experience it's difficult to make a profit for a person that plans on using a single airplane for personal use and for charter use. It's even harder to work for said person when he/she expects to make money with an airplane. As someone above mentioned, most folk with $ appreciate the depreciation value come tax day. Chartering can certainly defer some costs, but breaking even aint so easy.

With rough numbers, better plan on chartering the thing 45-50hrs a month to cover the costs, then you said you'd be looking at another 20hrs of personal flying. Good luck with that!

 

[Redman]

The experience I reference is from helping others do just that- purchase an airplane and lease it back to a charter operator. I'm not trying to get into a pi$$ing match, just trying to learn something from PC-12 operaters. If my intent was the former, I would have entitled the thread "Hey, Looking For a Pi$$ing Match".

I do appreciate your rough estimate, however.

 

[bizjet800]

Aircraft and profits shouldn't be in the same sentence! ANY aircraft that is leased back won't make the owner any money, it will simply defer the costs and help come tax time. Sounds like your owner has been talking to some management companies that are telling him what a great revenue tool a plane can be! Here is all the proof you need: go in to any charter company and ask them how many of their planes they own. Their answer should tell you how unprofitable owning a plane is.

 

[psysicx]

Are there any single pilot jets that can perform like a PC-12?

 

[Geronimo4497]

www.grobspn.com

Should be certified in the middle of 2008.

 

[BushwickBill]

www.grobspn.com

Should be certified in the middle of 2008.

I didn't see any info on the site for a single engine jet... then again I miss a lot in life.

Im curious so if you could help out that would be cool.

 

[100-1/2]

G-97,

How many of those that Pilatus Built are scheduled for import and finishing through Pilatus Colorado?

Ratted out King Air? Spoken right out of Pilatus' talking points.

Ex: Fairly New C208B - $1.4M
Early 90's BE20 - $1.75M

=$3.15M

VS.

$3.5M+ Pilatus PC-12 not delivered before 2009.



-Exactly how is my math "Fuzzy"?

100-1/2

 

[Geronimo4497]

I didn't see any info on the site for a single engine jet... then again I miss a lot in life.

Im curious so if you could help out that would be cool.

Huh? He asked about single pilot jets. I try to miss a lot too; gives me an excuse for being so dumb.

 

[BushwickBill]

Huh? He asked about single pilot jets. I try to miss a lot too; gives me an excuse for being so dumb.

Woopy Doopy.... No more responding to post with my newfangled phone.

I'm just glad I wasn't arguing about something important like.... oh.

I guess nothing important happens here.

 

[AerroMatt]

Xrated's numbers are spot-on. Figure to operate a PC12 about 600hrs annually to break even on a leaseback to a 135 operator. All you are doing is wearing out your investment that much more rapidly.

 

[FlyFlyFly]

The above is very accurate. Quite often, the number that gets lost in the shuffle is the resale of the aircraft. If you are trying to operate an airplane ona 135 cert and getting good utilization, care for the aircraft goes down the tubes. The paint and interior wear out much quicker, the crews care less for the little things and the pax treat it like, well like a "rental". When you talk about another $300K at selling time, how does that impact the total cost of ownership? If your owner is financing the airplane on a 20 year amortization, he may be writing a big check at sell time. You need to make sure you have a finance type in your fold (not the aircraft broker or charter management firms people) that can evaluate the project start to finish, and they need to understand the used a\c market. I will say personally I think that the charter model of cost mitigation is more fiction than reality, since on total cost the owner usage needs to be so low that they may as well charter and skip ownership.

 

[AerroMatt]

...I think that the charter model of cost mitigation is more fiction than reality...

You are exactly right, Fly! This is why I haven't put my PC12 on a 135 ticket. It might make sense to someone who wants/needs a tax write-off. Otherwise, forget about it and put it in the hangar. The bird will appreciate no matter what, and the owner will come out ahead.

 

[FlyFlyFly]

The tax benefits of 135 are overrated. The real tax benefit is writing down the first 50% of the value of the bird in the first 2 years. That will outweigh ANY operating cost deductions. The revenue that charter generates does not come close to covering the true operating cost when one figures loss of market value on the airframe.

They may not know what they are doing when they buy, but the sting on the resale is never forgotten...