Question for JetBlu guys?

[jettypeguy]

I was in FLL yesterday and saw 2 or 3 Jblu airbus's paked at the gate with the jetway hooked up but airstairs where hooked up to the left side rear door (2L is it). people were exiting on one plane and then the plane next to it people were boarding, all through that rear door via stairs. Whats up with this? Why not use the jetway that was hooked up. looked like an inconvience for the pax.

 

[Redtails]

The rear airstair exit/boarding is in addition to the jetway. It speeds up the boarding and deplaning process. When you're shooting for 40 minute turns, this helps out a lot. FLL, MCO, BTV, TPA, ROC, BUF, LGB (no jetways here, but 2 stairs used), LAS are some of the cities that utilize this method. Folks rows 15-26 are offered this option, but if they have strollers or can't walk up/down the stairs, they're told to exit/board via the jetway...

 

[jettypeguy]

interesting, I figured it had to be something like that, I didn't realize that you guys did such quick turns. It's a good Idea for places like sunny FLA and MCO, but It must not be fun getting off into that -20 windchill in BUF or ROC in the dead of winter. Thanks for the answer...

 

[Redtails]

It's a station manager's choice, so if the weather is inclement, then the process is not utilized. However, because LGB has no jetways, if it's raining, the gate agents hand out umbrellas at the bottom of the stairs (which are covered).

 

[Peckerwood]

Quick turn?

You are kidding about the 40 minute turn being "quick" right? Southwest has been doing 20-25 minute turns for decades. Go ask D. Neeleman if 40 minutes is a quick turn. I will bet he can remember a time when we did 15 minute full on and full off back in the old Morris Air days. People would exit the front as we were bringing folks in through the aft entry door. SWA is taking the process further by using a dual boarding bridge in a few of its cities. Good luck....

 

[Redtails]

Yup, but it's with 162 folks vs 130 or so, plus you've got about 10 or so wheelchairs or more for the FL cities, heheh... 40 minutes is still a challenge even with both doors in use.

 

[Peckerwood]

It is 137 vs 162 if you want to split hairs. Still looking at 137 pax in 25 minutes vice 162 in 40 minutes. We are boarding 1.5 pax a minute faster. Yippee!! It must be that we don't have to hand out TV guides at the door. I would still welcome you to tell David that you are doing 40 minute quick turns and watch the reaction. It would be priceless because I know how incredibly anal he is about that stuff. I guess that is why JBLU is doing so well. It is a well run company. Good luck....

 

[B6Busdriver]

Just curious, how many places are still doing 25 minute turns?

 

[Peckerwood]

I can't give you an exact number but there are still many cities that publish 25 minute turns. There are actually some 20 minute turns in the SWA timetable out of HOU and HRL to name a few.

Later....

 

[Blue Dude]

SWA doesn't have assigned seats and the average load factors are also much lower (mid 60's vs. mid 80's for JB). In addition, SWA runs a lot of through flights where not everyone gets on or off on every leg. So at 65% loads, SWA might have 90 pax (or quite a bit less if a through flight) on and off, all going to whatever open seat. JetBlue has few through flights (and where there are maybe a half dozen pax stay on) and at an 85% load has 135 pax on and off on every leg. All of this helps SWA turn planes faster than JB. Arguably, though, the level of service isn't as high (no assigned seats) so it's a tradeoff.

 

[Peckerwood]

The load factor at SWA is actually closer to 75%. The thing to realize is that the scheduled 20 and 25 minute turns on a lot of the flights throughout the SWA system exist even on the historically full flights meaning that a load of 137 pax is commonly associated with the quick turn flights. Granted, the boarding process is different in that SWA does not tell you which first class seat to sit in (all of our seats are first class BTW) and we do have numerous through flights,which gives us an advantage. Bottom line is that 40 minutes is not really that quick of a turn. Heck when y'all get the 100 seater you should be able to turn em in 15. Tell Dave hey and have fun.

Later....

 

[dgs]

We also clean and cater the airplanes in the same 35-40 minutes. Yes, some of our turns are scheduled at 35.

Since we can't count on doing aft deplaning/boarding, most of our turns will work without them. If we are late, it helps to have the flexibility to expedite.

Aside from the turn timing, the point of using aft stairs is to provide more convenience to the customer. If you are in row 26, wouldn't you rather jump out the back, than wait 10 minutes for 25 rows of people in front of you to clear? Getting people on and off the airplane faster helps us turn planes faster and provide a higher level of customer service.

Currently we only have one gate at JFK where we routinely deplane through the aft door. Gate 16 has a covered walkway, but it doesn't get used all the time.

Our new plans for Terminal 5 include 26 gates with jetbridges to BOTH doors. That will be SWEET!

 

[Blue Dude]

From the SWA website: YTD load factor 2003 (thru Sep) is 67.8%, and in 2002 for the same period it was 66.9%. Sorry I was off by 2-3%. JetBlue YTD 2003 was 85.1% and in 2002 it was 83.4%. I stand by my statements. You seemed to affirm them at the same time you disagree. "the boarding process is different... which gives us an advantage." "Bottom line is that 40 minutes is not really that quick of a turn." Make up your mind please. Considering we handle almost 50% more passengers per turn than you do, all going to assigned seats, a 40 minute turn time is more than acceptable, it's extraordinary.

 

[Flying Freddie]

Dear Mr. Peckerhead,

Bite me.

 

[SpeedBird]

It is 137 vs 162 if you want to split hairs.

According to SWA's last published 10Q (6/03) swa owned 379 aircraft with a mix of -200/-500 with 122 seats, and -300/-700 with 137 seats. The total number of seats was 51158. Divide that by 379 aircraft and you get 135 seats/aircraft for a fleet average(134.98 to be exact). Seeing that you're a person who demands exactness in the numbers, you'll appreciate the difference between 135 and 137 seats.

Bottom line, the reason for pushing "quick turns" is to get the airplanes back in the air where they will make money for the airline. Therefore a better measure to look at is the daily utilization rate for each airline's fleet. For SWA it's just under 12 hours/day (11.7) and JBLU is 13 hours/day (highest in the industry). That's an 11% improvement over SWA. When you add in the difference in aircraft size (and seat numbers), then the improvement in efficiency grows to over 20%.

This is one of the most overlooked factors that explains why JBLU's CASM is so low, and is also the reason why JBLU will make "major" status next year with only a fleet average of somewhere between 52-55 aircraft.

I mean no disrespect to SWA's outstanding reputation and track record, or their employees' dedication. But SWA's record serves as the gold-standard to measure other airlines by. Based on this fact, I'd say that David Neeleman, his management team, and the JBLU employees are doing a bang-up job.

 

[azdriver]

across the pond

hi guys! FYI:

Here in Europe, ryanair http://ryanair.com/(737-200 400 800) makes turn around in 25 min, no matter how many pax they can carry... I believe the 800 has 189 seats avlbl. Those times makes me wonder what's wrong with my company(alitalia express): it's seems almost impossible for us to turn around in less then 35-40 min especially in Milano Malpensa...(BTW we are very little guys: E145) . If we wants to makes better times, we really need to suck d@#s. Can be worthless...

cheers from Italy

 

[AKAAB]

No need to start a pi$$ing contest! JBLU and LUV both do a great job of turning the airplanes and getting them back in the air where they make money!

I have to wonder, though, if the :25 turn is actually a little longer...I mean, judging by their taxi speed, they must be making up a few extra minutes for the turn! <ducking>

BTW - do they still include the speeding warning for FLL in your paperwork?

AKAAB - Friend of JetBlue and JetBeige!

 

[Peckerwood]

C'mon now fellas,

Sounds like a few of you got your feathers ruffled. JBLU is doing great and I am not disputing that. Great load factor and headed in the right direction with a proven winner in the aviation industry at the helm. I was simply stating that a 40 minute turn in my opinion is NOT that quick of a turn and that SWA has been turning planes in 25 minutes for a long time. For the critics and math majors if you take a full airplane at 137 seats which SWA has and utilizes in its scheduled 25 turns and 162 seats which JBLU has and utilizes in its 40 minute turns the numbers are in favor of SWA. I really don't care who does it faster and the numbers are actually pretty close but 40 minutes with 162 pax is not all that fast. It is roughly equal to a 35 minute turn using a 137 capacity aircraft. If you want to say it is "extraordinary" and in your eyes it is then so be it, but where I have been it isn't that amazing. Speedbird you are right JBLU is doing a "bang up job." AKAAK I agree that a pissing match is not where this thread should end up although it may be too late for that, the load factor really has nothing to do with the thread in that we are not discussing whether SWA or JBLU loads pax faster the subject is or at least was if a 40 minute turn is something to toot your horn about and I don't think it is. Wow, I would hate to see what would have happened to this thread if there actually would have been something worth talking about. One more thing for Flying Freddie: You would think that after 23000 hrs in the seat that you would have more to add to a thread than "BITE ME." Nice work there Captain. Pitiful!!

Later....

 

[Flying Freddie]

Dear Mister Peckerhead,

Your post didn't deserve more of a reply. I was afraid that you might not of understand a more complex retort.

AKAAB is correct. I accept your apology and offer mine in return.

Pissing match is over. Lets all just get along.

 

[AKAAB]

Ahhh...harmony. My work here is done.

AKAAB - Your voice of reason on the all-philosophy radio station - WYMI...