Question for Frontier Pilots

[rballan]

Trying to do some industry pay rate benchmarking. With respect to your original 2007 CBA (as amended in 2011), which pay table are you on? Do you have any further increases before section 6?

Best of luck with Indigo.

Cheers.

 

[monkeybrains01]

You don't want us as part of that benchmark

 

[StaySeated]

We are currently stuck in the 3/2011 pay table found in LOA 21. We have been working in this table for a loooooong time.

We move to the 7/2011 pay table found in LOA 21 on 1/2016.
We move to the 1/2012 pay table found in LOA 21 in 1/2017.
We move to the 1/2015 pay table found in LOA 39 in 3/2017.

The CBA was amended three times in 2008 during BK with regard to pay rates. LOA 17 reduced pay for an interim period. LOA 20 extended the period found in LOA 17 but increased pay slightly. In 2009 we exited BK, LOA 39 extended the CBA amendable period and added two cola pay tables with 2% raises on top of the original book (2007) highest rate.

LOA 67 in 2011 did not change pay rates but it did freeze longevity for one year. We recoup that year in 2015 (a pilot in year 11 in 2011 remained in year 11 until 2013, year 12 in 2013, year 13 2014 and then jump to 15 in 2015).

Monkey captured my point in fewer words, you probably don't want to use us until 3/2017 and even then I don't think we will be paid according to our 2007 CBA (I expect another merger prior to that point in time).

 

[redflyer65]

We are currently stuck in the 3/2011 pay table found in LOA 21. We have been working in this table for a loooooong time.

We move to the 7/2011 pay table found in LOA 21 on 1/2016.
We move to the 1/2012 pay table found in LOA 21 in 1/2017.
We move to the 1/2015 pay table found in LOA 39 in 3/2017.

The CBA was amended three times in 2008 during BK with regard to pay rates. LOA 17 reduced pay for an interim period. LOA 20 extended the period found in LOA 17 but increased pay slightly. In 2009 we exited BK, LOA 39 extended the CBA amendable period and added two cola pay tables with 2% raises on top of the original book (2007) highest rate.

LOA 67 in 2011 did not change pay rates but it did freeze longevity for one year. We recoup that year in 2015 (a pilot in year 11 in 2011 remained in year 11 until 2013, year 12 in 2013, year 13 2014 and then jump to 15 in 2015).

Monkey captured my point in fewer words, you probably don't want to use us until 3/2017 and even then I don't think we will be paid according to our 2007 CBA (I expect another merger prior to that point in time).

No matter what the payrates are, that makes my head hurt. Talk about an amendment to an amendment.

 

[DASHDRIVER]

Unfortunately here at VX we don't get the choice. We are benchmarked against all narrow body drivers including frontier, allegiant and spirit, which for the most part have lower hourly than we do. What sucks even more is they only compare straight hourly pay. No work rule enhancements. So even though I know spirit FO's make more than I do their hourly wage is less than mine. So it brings down the way our management averages our pay. Trust me man, we all want that to change.

 

[StaySeated]

No matter what the payrates are, that makes my head hurt. Talk about an amendment to an amendment.

Red believe me it hurts.

The goal originally was to exit BK with the CBA intact. In other words, don't change any work rules or touch Section 4 - Compensation. At the end of every LOA, the CBA remained "untouched". BK is an unpredictable and unforgiving arena, one LOA led to another but the goal remained...if we survive we needed to start Section 6 where we originally planned on starting. We didn't want to dig out of the same hole twice.

If we exist in 2017 we will actually have a CBA free of any concessions, a few minor improvements in Scope that no longer matter, and three COLA pay raises. Meanwhile we have a multi-million dollar equity agreement (already paid $1.7MM divided amongst the pilots who were on property 6/11) and 4% of the future value of F9 when we IPO/Merge in the future and a profit sharing settlement that pays us a chunk of change every April for the next few years regardless of profit margins. It remains to be seen what will actually happen but in the grand scheme of things it could have been A LOT worse.

None of us really care because if we fail at the NMB it doesn't really matter. We should know in a month or so if we have a future here at F9.

 

[hyflyin]

Unfortunately here at VX we don't get the choice. We are benchmarked against all narrow body drivers including frontier, allegiant and spirit, which for the most part have lower hourly than we do. What sucks even more is they only compare straight hourly pay. No work rule enhancements. So even though I know spirit FO's make more than I do their hourly wage is less than mine. So it brings down the way our management averages our pay. Trust me man, we all want that to change.

Are you really blaming others for the s****y pay at Virgin? Sorry, there are no free rides. Too many have bought into the "were just a start up" nonsense for too long.

Time to pay the price that should have been paid years ago.

 

[DASHDRIVER]

Are you really trying to pick an argument over a statement that was obviously not hostile? I was just stating the truth of our current situation. Calm down Francis.

 

[hyflyin]

Are you really trying to pick an argument over a statement that was obviously not hostile? I was just stating the truth of our current situation. Calm down Francis.

No, not at all. I'll agree the question could have been less hostile. Sorry.

However the initial statement is misleading don't you think? I was thinking reality and perception?? I suppose discussing it though won't really change anything until representation is on the property.

Carry on

 

[DASHDRIVER]

Ok, fair enough reading how I phrased my question I can see how it could be misinterpreted.

I agree that the only way we will change the current structure is by organizing. And I don't think there is too many people that think a union is anything but inevitable here. Really the question everyone is discussing is when. I'm going to avoid that discussion here. Better for the flight decks and the crew rooms. Internet discussions of unionism always degrade to childish pissing matches.

I wish the best for the frontier, JetBlue, and our pilots. We have all been through a lot, and few of us are here because plan "A" worked out. Despite what some may post on these boards, we are all in this together.

Regards,

DD

 

[hyflyin]

Ok, fair enough reading how I phrased my question I can see how it could be misinterpreted.

I agree that the only way we will change the current structure is by organizing. And I don't think there is too many people that think a union is anything but inevitable here. Really the question everyone is discussing is when. I'm going to avoid that discussion here. Better for the flight decks and the crew rooms. Internet discussions of unionism always degrade to childish pissing matches.

I wish the best for the frontier, JetBlue, and our pilots. We have all been through a lot, and few of us are here because plan "A" worked out. Despite what some may post on these boards, we are all in this together.

Regards,

DD

Absolutely, take care.

 

[hyflyin]

I wish the best for the frontier, JetBlue, and our pilots. We have all been through a lot, and few of us are here because plan "A" worked out. Despite what some may post on these boards, we are all in this together.

Regards,

DD

I found a bit of good news about a net profit in 13: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/virgin-america-reports-fourth-quarter-130000771.html

I don't know about plan "A" working out just yet, but it's better than it has been the last several years. I was kind of shocked to see this article and no thread with people jumping up and down either way.

Looks like a good start to 14, maybe an IPO this year?