Question For DAL Guys

[Ponchus pilot]

The quote I'm pasting below is from another thread and the guy writing it claims that ALPA did not do anything for DAL pilots and they had to give management everything it wanted. Therefore, there is no point in having a union at the airline he works for. I think he is wrong and DAL pilots did not just roll over for management. Can you guys elaborate on this a bit more?
Thanks

You're correct, DAL did take wages away from their non union groups when it was required, but they did take away from DALPA as well, it just took longer. All the things DALPA said would never happen, scope, wages, retirement, blah-blah-blah, all happened. Having ALPA in here is just going to make this place a living hell for 5 years until a contract gets worked out, if not longer. We can keep progressing torwards better in constant steps or we can try WW III to place an agreement with mighty ALPA helping us.

 

[800Dog]

The quote I'm pasting below is from another thread and the guy writing it claims that ALPA did not do anything for DAL pilots and they had to give management everything it wanted. Therefore, there is no point in having a union at the airline he works for. I think he is wrong and DAL pilots did not just roll over for management. Can you guys elaborate on this a bit more?
Thanks

Delta pilots gave management what it wanted, not ALPA. We all have a vote. Jetblue and Skywest excluded of course.

 

[Ponchus pilot]

My question wasnt particularly about who did it. What I am trying to find out is did management get everything they asked for and what did the pilot group get in return.

 

[accinelli]

My question wasnt particularly about who did it. What I am trying to find out is did management get everything they asked for and what did the pilot group get in return.

The pilot group got to keep their cushy little jobs.

 

[GCAP]

DAL got much more than they expected due to the lack of courage of the pilots. The pilots think they got the proceeds of the 650 million note and the 2.1 billion claim.

 

[Helos2Galaxy]

If I get my share of the 650M/2.1B, I'd agree w/ u. If I don't then everyone can say "See we told ya so..."

 

[Scope out RJ's]

The pilot group got to keep their cushy little jobs.

The lav truck driver speaketh!

 

[FDJ2]

The quote I'm pasting below is from another thread and the guy writing it claims that ALPA did not do anything for DAL pilots and they had to give management everything it wanted. Therefore, there is no point in having a union at the airline he works for. I think he is wrong and DAL pilots did not just roll over for management. Can you guys elaborate on this a bit more?
Thanks

If it were not for DALPA the company would have imposed its term sheet, which it failed to do.

I'll list a few items from what was demanded (Co.)and then what was ultimately agreed to (TA).

Duration: Co. 5 years TA. 3.5 years

Pay: Co 19.5% cut no pay raises TA. 14% with annual pay raises of 1.5%-6% based on performance with 1% in 2010

100 seat pay: Co. $88.93 TA. $95.20 E190, $112 E195

Equity: Co. None TA. $2.1B claim and $650M note if DB terminated

Per Diem: $1.8 Domestic $2.05 Int'l TA. $1.85 Domestic $2.40 Int'l

Duty Period Average;: Co. Delete TA. No change

Duty Period Credit: Co. Delete TA. No Change

Rotation Guarantee: Co. delete TA. No Change

Minutes Under; Co. delete TA No Change

OJI benefits: Co. Delete, TA No Change

Sick Leave: Co. 20 hours/year full pay thereafter 60% pay TA. 240 hours over rolling 3 years, thereafter 75% pay

Retiree/Survivor's Medical Co. 100% premium paid by pilots, TA. 51% premium paid by pilots

Disabilty: 2 years coverage unless unable to hold any job. TA. Unlimited coverage with 22%/year deposited into a DC retirement plan until able to either fly, or retirement date or on social security, whichever is later

Scope: Co. 200 79 seat jets TA 200 70 seat jets and 30 76 seat jets with additional 76 seater tied to mainline growth.

Change of Control: Co. delete TA. Retained

There's plenty more examples, but hopefully you get the idea.

Yes this TA is concessionary, but the overall contract while definitely not industry leading still compares favorably with others in the industry and IMO is better then most BK airlines.

 

[michael707767]

Scope: Co. 200 79 seat jets TA 200 70 seat jets and 30 76 seat jets with additional 76 seater tied to mainline growth.

small correction, but the company is limited to a total of 200 aircraft seating 70-76 passengers.

 

[FDJ2]

small correction, but the company is limited to a total of 200 aircraft seating 70-76 passengers.

Good catch. In the interest of accuracy here is the actual language along with the Negotiators Note Pad explanation.

SCOPE
Amend Section 1 B. 17. c. to read:
c. one of up to 200 jet aircraft configured with 51-70 passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“70-seat jets”).

Add a new Section 1 B. 17. d. and e. to read:

d. beginning January 1, 2007 one of up to the number specified in the chart below jet aircraft configured with 71-76 passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“76-seat jets”). The number of 76-seat jets may be increased above the number specified in the chart below by three 76-seat jets for each aircraft above the number of aircraft in the fleet operated by the Company (in service, undergoing maintenance and operational spares) as of January 1, 2007. The number and type of aircraft in the fleet on January 1, 2007 will be provided to the Association in writing no later than January 15, 2007. Such a report will also be provided to the Association at the scheduled quarterly financial update. The number of 70-seat jets plus 76-seat jets permitted by Section 1 B. 17. may not exceed 200. Once the number of permitted 76-seat jets is established, it will not be reduced except as provided in the Note below.

Year Permitted 76-seat Jets

2007 15

2008 and beyond 30

Note: If a pilot on the seniority list as of June 1, 2006 (i.e., Troy Kane and above) is placed on furlough after April 13, 2006, the Company will convert all 76-seat jets for operation as 70 seat jets.

e. A carrier that operates any of the 70- or 76-seat jets not being operated as of November 1, 2004, may do so only if that carrier and the Company have agreed to terms for a preferential hiring process for pilots furloughed by the Company (i.e., a pilot furloughed by the Company will be given preferential hiring at a Delta Connection Carrier if he completes all new hire paper work, meets all new hire airman and medical qualifications, satisfies background checks and successfully completes an interview). The Company will offer preferential interviews for employment to airmen employed by a Delta Connection Carrier that offers preferential hiring to furloughed pilots in accordance with this paragraph, subject to the Company’s objectives for diversity and experience among newly hired pilots. A pilot hired by a Delta Connection Carrier operating any of the 70 or 76-seat jets not being operated as of November 1, 2004 will not be required to resign his Delta seniority number in order to be hired by such carrier.

Negotiators Note Pad 06-04

Scope

The allowance for DCI to operate a limited number of 76-seat jets is, not surprisingly, the one area of Scope that has generated the largest number of questions. It’s useful to review our current Scope limitations regarding permitted aircraft types. Our connection partners currently can fly 125 aircraft configured with 70 seats and a maximum gross takeoff weight of 85,000 pounds or less. If mainline block hours had increased above a set threshold, then the number of allowed 70-seat jets could have increased to 150 aircraft. Currently, approximately 77 RJs configured with 70 seats are being flown at the connection carriers. Our connection partners can currently operate the CRJ-700, CRJ-705, CRJ-900, EMB-170 and the EMB-175 STD (Standard version) airframes because these aircraft all fall below the weight restriction. These airframes all are certificated to be configured with over 70 seats. The economics of the small jet are such that the manufacturers are no longer manufacturing the 50 or 70-seater aircraft. The DCI carriers that Delta uses will continue to replace the 50 and 70-seaters with newer, more efficient aircraft.

The Negotiating Committee fought hard to maintain our scope language with no changes, while management, starting last September, attempted to increase their DCI authority to 200 79-seat jets. This issue was the very last issue to be decided in the negotiations. It became increasingly clear that the company required this scope change to implement their business plan and that the company would not itself operate aircraft in the 70-79 seat range. The company is in the process of rejecting many of the CRJ-200 operating leases (50-seat Bombardier aircraft).

To increase revenue, their plan is to replace these rejected 50 seat RJs with 70 or 76-seat RJs offering first class seating, and barring the use of these aircraft forces the Company to give up major revenue at a time when we are demanding that management place greater focus on increasing revenue and less focus on reducing pilot costs.

Senior executives flatly refused our repeated proposals to operate 76-seat aircraft at the mainline with a competitive cost structure. Their position was that there was no cost structure we could provide that would account for other costs and permit a competitive operation. The choice came down to whether there would be a T/A with the financial returns to the pilot group and this scope change (to allow some 76-seat RJs), or no deal at all, with the associated risks and uncertainties that path would offer. At the same time, the Negotiating Committee views scope as the major contractual foundation of our job security. We told management, therefore, that there would be no greater number of 76- seat RJs than necessary, that the number could only grow with mainline growth from the fleet level achieved after the lease restructurings, and that these 76-seaters would have to physically revert to 70-seat status if a single pilot is placed on furlough, including furloughed pilots Troy Kane and above once they are recalled. After crafting the furlough provision and the mainline growth metric to protect our junior pilots, the Negotiating Committee determined that, as a package, LOA 51 was the best agreement that could be achieved.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Has Troy been called back yet?? The General seems to believe hiring is just around the corner...

 

[FDJ2]

Has Troy been called back yet?? The General seems to believe hiring is just around the corner...

No, but 65 more pilots are being recalled this fall, with the addition of at least 10 ETOPS B757s next summer, ongoing international expansion and considering the bypass rate of recalls, it is not beyond reason that hiring could start in 2007.

 

[michael707767]

No, but 65 more pilots are being recalled this fall, with the addition of at least 10 ETOPS B757s next summer, ongoing international expansion and considering the bypass rate of recalls, it is not beyond reason that hiring could start in 2007.

I heard that of the most recent 65 letters sent out, only 5 people accepted recall. The rest bypassed. I think the most recent recall will get very close to TK, if not to him.