Question for Comair folks...

[HarleyGuy]

What kind of 'computer glitch' could cancel EVERY flight? What the heck happened? Just curious.

 

[V-1]

Here's a reply to a similar question I posted on the Regionals forum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossky

Seriously though, what did airlines do to plan, coordinate, and execute crew scheduling duties before the age of computers? I would guess they had more employees, used lots of paper, pencils, and chalk boards. Don't mean to be arrogant, but it seems a little silly to me that they've cancelled all their flights only because their scheduling computers are down. The pilots, schedulers, and dispatchers know the regs, the phones still work, we have solar powered calculators, and the pilots still have their schedules, on paper at least. You would think the company, like Clint and the Marines, would "improvise, adapt, and overcome" (Heartbreak Ridge movie). The payroll and scheduling computers could catch up when the system is fixed.

End quote


While the inept management of the airline during the last few days is inexcusable, let me try to respond to a little of the above.

1. They've not "cancelled all their flights only because their scheduling computers are down". Many aircraft are temporarily disabled due, in part, to the weather system that moved through the area a few days ago.

2. The phones do work...but not well when you have 2000 crewmembers trying to call the handful of schedulers available. Christmas Eve, almost no one...including dispatchers, was able to contact Crew Scheduling.

3. The pilots, schedulers, and dispatchers know the regs., though some Flight Attendants don't. Regardless, this is a moot point if you reference #2 above. Nothing can get done without coordination and agreement between the three workgroups, and when one of the three isn't able to handle the call volume, let alone handle the tremendous workload that has just been forced on them by the failure of an ancient computer system, coodination cannot occur.

3. As pointed out above ("I would guess they had more employees") the efficiencies afforded by computer systems - regardless how archaic, become a double-edged sword when the system fails. I don't know if Comair has enough human schedulers to manually sort out the mess the weather, aircraft mechanicals, and scheduling system failure has thrown at their feet...while still maintaining operational integrity. Don't forget there are over 3000 crewmembers, almost all of which are operating different schedules due to the emergency operations declared in the wake of the winter storm.

4. While in the movies, and perhaps in war, it is acceptable to "improvise, adapt, and overcome", this type of behaviour in a system as intricate as an airline's operation is likely to make the situation even worse...not to mention the rules that will have to be broken to accomplish this. The last thing Comair needs is hundreds of crewmembers flying airplanes around to places without the company's knowledge. There has been a lot of hard work by scheduling, dispatch, and crewmembers alike to "improvise, adapt, and overcome"...however there are well-defined limits we will not cross.

Comair has had crews stuck in hotels for six days in some locations, that I'm aware of.

I agree there is no excuse for not having a good back-up plan in place. I also believe there is no excuse for using a scheduling system that was put in place when Comair was half the size it is today. The responsibility for creating the system in which employees work is given to management personnel. The fallout from the failure the airline experienced this weekend must be directed towards this same management.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[michael707767]

I agree there is no excuse for not having a good back-up plan in place. I also believe there is no excuse for using a scheduling system that was put in place when Comair was half the size it is today. The responsibility for creating the system in which employees work is given to management personnel. The fallout from the failure the airline experienced this weekend must be directed towards this same management.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can bet that when someone starts to place the blame, upper management will deflect the blame onto someone else. Its never their fault.

 

[bvt1151]

You can bet that when someone starts to place the blame, upper management will deflect the blame onto someone else. Its never their fault.

Most of the blame lays squarely on Delta management's efforts to cut costs at all cost. They have already deflected the blame.

I think we should all blame this on Boyd. If he can make up BS and the media will buy into it, then there has to be a way to pin this one on him...

 

[TZFO]

Comair

I might have missed it, but did the earlier posts mention that Comair ran out of glycol and could not deice the planes?

 

[spinproof]

I might have missed it, but did the earlier posts mention that Comair ran out of glycol and could not deice the planes?

Comair ran out of glycol because they are not allowed to store but so much...and when the storm came police would not let the trucks on the road to deliver more!

 

[CRJ puppy]

Delta mainline ran out also...in fact everyone ran out at CVG. When the police closed the interstates and the roads backed up for miles, it took a bit longer for the trucks to arrive...

 

[michael707767]

Most of the blame lays squarely on Delta management's efforts to cut costs at all cost. They have already deflected the blame.

.

Read my post on the regional forum. I fully lay the ultimate blame for this at Delta's feet. Delta owns CMR. Delta is responsible to see that its subsidiaries and code share partners can do their job effectively and safely. It's Delta's name on the tickets. The president of DCI (Buttrell) is a Delta employee(or at least was. Either way he was put there by DAL management)

I don't care how you want to look at it, this is Delta's fault. Trust me, the pax won't even remember CMR, their ticket said Delta.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

I wonder if we should have just said that a squirrel got in and chewed through a wire or something. Seems to work for the utility companies.

 

[TZFO]

Does Cincinnati have the weather channel?
How can Delta not know a wx system was gonna rip thru?
Comair gonna have to take a pay cut for this one? It had to be the pilots fault.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Anybody who watched The Weather Channel knew a full four days in advance that there was a significant weather event on the way. This was late December, after all.

As for the antiquated SBS, it was written in Fortran, a computer language so arcane there have been significant problems finding proficient programmers. Get out the old chalkboard, use 3x5 cards, whatever it takes. Anyone with any computer skills knows that you have to have a workable backup plan.

It may have been good enough for Project Gemini but this is ridiculous. Heads should for this.

 

[Well-hung Start]

A note from Comair management

Hi.....I'm a Comair management personnel.

Hey, guys, cut us a bit of slack, we're only human! I can explain...

A few unforseeable things led to this slight service disruption:

1) Winter snuck up on us in late December.

2) 10 pilots called in sick on Christmas. Statistically, only 7.3 should have been sick. This was an illegal job action.

3) The TRS-80 computers (both of them) got coffee spilt through the grilles when our schedulers (both of them) drank coffee on the job. The backup floppies were being used as coasters, so were unavailable to the programmers. The crews were clogging up the phone lines so the modems couldn't get a dial tone.

4) We found a copy of the vintage 1987 "Basic Crew Scheduler 1.1" for sale on eBay. But since FedEx charges extra for Saturday delivery, the earliest we could have it by is Monday.

5) The deicing fluid got used up when crews called for deicing when there was only a little snow on parts of the wings. The planes were designed with powerful-enough engines to handle this extra weight.

6) Our bonuses will be cut alot (like 10%) because of this, so we are unfairly being blamed for everone else's misteaks.

So shutthefukup!

 

[bvt1151]

Does Cincinnati have the weather channel?
How can Delta not know a wx system was gonna rip thru?
Comair gonna have to take a pay cut for this one? It had to be the pilots fault.

Actually Comair had 7 days worth of glycol on hand, with around 6 trucks on the way and more due to the storm. All 7 days worth were used up within 24 hours, and all trucks were stuck. No more glycol could have been stored. The only thing they could have done was have those trucks standing by for a week, but with 7 days worth on hand, there isn't a single inventory model that would have suggested that. Almost all interstates around Cincinnati were closed at one time, and nearby Evansville (which is upwind from CVG) has called this the worst storm since 1918. I don't remember how the airlines reacted in 1918, but I'll bet they were out of glycol also.

I am a pilot at Comair, and while it sounds stupid to blame this on the pilots, we aren't without blame. Several pilots (and flight attendants) left outstations early to non-rev home without notifying scheduling. Granted you couldn't get ahold of scheduling, but regardless they put an unneeded and enormous strain on an already taxed scheduling system. Of course this isn't anywhere near the main reasons for this happening, but before we start pointing fingers, we need to take a look at what we did (or didn't do) to help the situation. That being said, there are many crewmembers who have spent days in the hotel in outstations awaiting scheduling's call, and those who have gone out of their way to do what they can to help. Those should be thanked, but we need to find a way to prevent the mass retreat of those pilots who went AWOL.

 

[Well-hung Start]

blame the workers

...there are many crewmembers who have spent days in the hotel in outstations awaiting scheduling's call, and those who have gone out of their way to do what they can to help.

.....while all the managers were at home with their families drinking egg-nog.

Who in management gets holidays off?.........EVERYONE.....the offices are CLOSED!

 

[spinproof]

Actually Comair had 7 days worth of glycol on hand, with around 6 trucks on the way and more due to the storm. All 7 days worth were used up within 24 hours, and all trucks were stuck. No more glycol could have been stored. The only thing they could have done was have those trucks standing by for a week, but with 7 days worth on hand, there isn't a single inventory model that would have suggested that. Almost all interstates around Cincinnati were closed at one time, and nearby Evansville (which is upwind from CVG) has called this the worst storm since 1918. I don't remember how the airlines reacted in 1918, but I'll bet they were out of glycol also.

I am a pilot at Comair, and while it sounds stupid to blame this on the pilots, we aren't without blame. Several pilots (and flight attendants) left outstations early to non-rev home without notifying scheduling. Granted you couldn't get ahold of scheduling, but regardless they put an unneeded and enormous strain on an already taxed scheduling system. Of course this isn't anywhere near the main reasons for this happening, but before we start pointing fingers, we need to take a look at what we did (or didn't do) to help the situation. That being said, there are many crewmembers who have spent days in the hotel in outstations awaiting scheduling's call, and those who have gone out of their way to do what they can to help. Those should be thanked, but we need to find a way to prevent the mass retreat of those pilots who went AWOL.

Wrong, cool aide drinker! The very premise of your reply is flawed. If there were 7 days supply of glcol why didn't it last 7 days? To imply this is arbitrary and sedetious. If a seven day supply can be used in 24 hours then the supply was 24 hrs!!!!

As for your comment on commuters...well needless to say "spoken like someone who is domicilled in CVG". Yes it is stupid to blame this on the very people who have been trying to change this system for several years!!!

But I'm sure your comments were well received across "the street".

 

[Well-hung Start]

I just ate a 7-day supply of Corn Flakes.....

......for BREAKFAST!

Wow........3 bowls really fills me up!

 

[V-1]

Several pilots (and flight attendants) left outstations early to non-rev home without notifying scheduling. Granted you couldn't get ahold of scheduling, but regardless they put an unneeded and enormous strain on an already taxed scheduling system....we need to find a way to prevent the mass retreat of those pilots who went AWOL.

After spending six days in a hotel in an outstation, while the company makes no effort to get those people home, what do you expect people to do...particularly after the company failed to facilitate communication with anyone.

The company must have at least two hundred different telephone lines, with telephones attached to them, over in the G.O. Somehow, 3000 pilots and flight attendants only have three numbers to call when an event like this occurs?

After hours of effort to contact scheduling...the best result of which was being hung up on, what is an off-duty employee to do?

The company does not own its employees. The employees are not slaves. Perhaps if the company doesn't want employees to go somewhere on their days off, they should offer to pay the employee to stay put.

 

[TZFO]

BVT,
LOL! Not having glycol in the middle of Dec when a winter storm was forcast 1 week in advance is incredible. They just plain goofed up! In addition, the sick calls happen, plus this year is a bad flu season with not enough shots to go around.
Quick question....How much does a pound of feathers weigh? 1 pound. How long should 7 days of glycol last? Hmmm. 7 days?
Did you go to purdue? Soon you will learn we were not taught the most important class of all, Airline BS 101.

 

[StaySeated]

AWOL? You have to be f'n kidding right? A majority of people were stranded with no communication from the company. zip, nada, nunca, not a word. How long would you recommend sitting around a hotel with no food and no nearby stores open (apparently, there was some sort of holiday going on as well) before you took charge and made a command decision? In most cases, the company didn't even know who was in what city so going home (one or two days after your trip was supposed to be over) or going back to cvg actually helped the situation. Nice try cake-eater.

 

[Well-hung Start]

Ain't Kool-Aid great!

......Kool-Aid.

Comes in so many flavours! And since YOU control the additives (sugar, sugar-substitute, cyanide), YOU hold all the cards.

Maybe those crews who sat like asswholes in a hotel room for six days will get TWO hams this Christmas! One regular, one Honey-Roast! Yaaaaaay! We haven't seen Daddy all week, but he's a company-man, and he brought us TWO hams! Daddy, what's that red stain on your shirt?

Hahahahahahahah!!!!