Question for A-10 Pilots

[cougar6903]

Question for the A-10 pilots on the board.

Is there any "Dog Fighting" type training for A-10 pilots or is it stricktly Air to Ground? How does it differ from say, F-16 training? Is the A-10 considered an Attack aircraft or a Fighter?

 

[Best on a Camel]

They fly low and slow and hope and pray a Mig driver is dumb enough to come and fly in front of that gun.

 

[Fury220]

dude, I'm sure you'd have better luck posting this in the military section...

...I'd comment if I knew for sure. I'm pretty sure that, if they do any Air to Air, it's gotta be mostly DBFM. They're not an offensive AA platform.

 

[Eagleflip]

They're not an offensive AA platform.

Well, maybe not in the traditional sense.

But I sure did feel rather defensive when that slow, ugly and dated rascal turned around on a dime and pointed that big ol' cannon my way.

"Circle the Hawgs..." Not an easy nut to crack if you're an air to air player, unless you want to take one of those un-manly Fox 3s from a distance. Pity the poor fighter dude who forgets that the Hog 30mm effective range is somewhere around two miles down at 'rooting altitude!

 

[Fury220]

Well, maybe not in the traditional sense.

But I sure did feel rather defensive when that slow, ugly and dated rascal turned around on a dime and pointed that big ol' cannon my way.

"Circle the Hawgs..." Not an easy nut to crack if you're an air to air player, unless you want to take one of those un-manly Fox 3s from a distance. Pity the poor fighter dude who forgets that the Hog 30mm effective range is somewhere around two miles down at 'rooting altitude!

Yeah, Hog drivers are always ready to show anyone HUD tapes of them gunning the brains outta Eagles...they seem to get a kick outta that.

Sounds like you can really get the nose to track on a Hog, but do you get more than one good turn? Guess you gotta make it count...

 

[mattpilot]

Is the A-10 considered an Attack aircraft or a Fighter?

As the name implies - "A" stands for ATTACK. If it were a Fighter, it were "F", like F-15, or F-16. It it were a Bomber (level bomber), it were "B", like the B-2. Some aircraft, like the F/A-18 have both "F" & "A". If its a "U" its a Utility aircraft, such as the U-2 Spy plane.

Please don't ask why its the F-117 since it has no AA weapons - i dont' know

 

[RJP]

Question for the A-10 pilots on the board.

Is there any "Dog Fighting" type training for A-10 pilots or is it stricktly Air to Ground? How does it differ from say, F-16 training? Is the A-10 considered an Attack aircraft or a Fighter?

Again, thanks to mattpilot for his shining, indepth insight.

Ask any hog pilot and he'll tell you he's an ATTACK pilot!

To answer the question, hog guys do BFM. Basic Fighter Maneuvers. There's no radar so there's no intercept training. They're trained how to defend against a radar threat and, of course, how to "circle the hogs".

It differs from F-16 training because the F-16 does every mission (including plenty of offensive intercepts and radar sorts...that kind of thing) you can come up with. All half-assed, of course. The hogs only practice defensive BFM and do these sorties to fill squares.

Don't forget that the hog carries two AIM-9s. Don't know which model now but it increases the range of the defense they can play. Oh, and the gun has enough range to get anyone's attention.

cheers.
RJP

 

[hawg2hawk]

I have a couple of HUD tapes with eagles in them and some withvipersandhornets too. They're nice souvenirs (everyone f's upsometime),butforgetting that they allowed us to get to knife fightingrange inthefirst place would be sort of dumb.
Caveat: Don't be nappin' crossing student gap if the hogs have GCI.

We did a fair amount of BFM/ACM training, but ouroffensivecapabilitywas obviously very limited. Most of our practice BFMwas doneforthe purposes of maintaining proficiency in the event ofneeding todoreal world DBFM.
Caveat: If you're a helicopter (or one of north korea's finest), the BFM/ACM isn't defensive from the hog's point of view.

"One good turn" is about right. Unless you're goingdownhill. Fromtheground, a hog v. hog BFM engagement looks alot like 2 goldfishbeingflushed down the toilet. A"light" hog is surprisingly agilethough, asmore than one viperlieutenant has discovered.

Incidentally, any time the gun trigger is down, turning or not, the hog guy is logging IFR time.

My favorite memory of DBFM was with some eagles from the JAXguard. Igotlucky and was just saddling up for an unobservedgunshot when theguy
saw me, lit the blowers, pirhouetted over, and left intheoppositedirection. I could actually hear the burners ignite.THATwascool.

ATTACK!

 

[mattpilot]

Again, thanks to mattpilot for his shining, indepth insight.

Glad i could help, jim-bob.

Btw.. i only answered his "designation" question. I didn't attempt to answer any of his other questions or what role the A-10 plays.

Again, i don't know what your problem with me is. You have yet to respond to my challenge in the other thread - perhaps you found out you were wrong? In that case an apology is in order!

 

[414Flyer]

Or some A-10s will just circle up and keep going around, and if a fighter goes after one, he will have A-10s behind him if he is not careful.

 

[RJP]

I have a couple of HUD tapes with eagles in them and some withvipersandhornets too. They're nice souvenirs (everyone f's upsometime),butforgetting that they allowed us to get to knife fightingrange inthefirst place would be sort of dumb.
Caveat: Don't be nappin' crossing student gap if the hogs have GCI.

We did a fair amount of BFM/ACM training, but ouroffensivecapabilitywas obviously very limited. Most of our practice BFMwas doneforthe purposes of maintaining proficiency in the event ofneeding todoreal world DBFM.
Caveat: If you're a helicopter (or one of north korea's finest), the BFM/ACM isn't defensive from the hog's point of view.

"One good turn" is about right. Unless you're goingdownhill. Fromtheground, a hog v. hog BFM engagement looks alot like 2 goldfishbeingflushed down the toilet. A"light" hog is surprisingly agilethough, asmore than one viperlieutenant has discovered.

Incidentally, any time the gun trigger is down, turning or not, the hog guy is logging IFR time.

My favorite memory of DBFM was with some eagles from the JAXguard. Igotlucky and was just saddling up for an unobservedgunshot when theguy
saw me, lit the blowers, pirhouetted over, and left intheoppositedirection. I could actually hear the burners ignite.THATwascool.

ATTACK!

Might want to think about getting a new keyboard withaspacebarthatactuallyworks.

 

[RJP]

Glad i could help, jim-bob.

Btw.. i only answered his "designation" question. I didn't attempt to answer any of his other questions or what role the A-10 plays.

Again, i don't know what your problem with me is. You have yet to respond to my challenge in the other thread - perhaps you found out you were wrong? In that case an apology is in order!

What? I've been challenged? To a duel? C'est la guerre!

I guess I'm sorry that I responded to any of your posts in the first place.

Good enough for ya?

 

[mattpilot]

What? I've been challenged? To a duel? C'est la guerre!

I guess I'm sorry that I responded to any of your posts in the first place.

Good enough for ya?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=46494&page=3

 

[dash8driver]

Again, thanks to mattpilot for his shining, indepth insight.

Ask any hog pilot and he'll tell you he's an ATTACK pilot!

To answer the question, hog guys do BFM. Basic Fighter Maneuvers.There's no radar so there's no intercept training. They're trained howto defend against a radar threat and, of course, how to "circle thehogs".

It differs from F-16 training because the F-16 does every mission(including plenty of offensive intercepts and radar sorts...that kindof thing) you can come up with. All half-assed, of course. The hogsonly practice defensive BFM and do these sorties to fill squares.

Don't forget that the hog carries two AIM-9s. Don't know which modelnow but it increases the range of the defense they can play. Oh, andthe gun has enough range to get anyone's attention.

cheers.
RJP

and now you can "circle the dash"

 

[hawg2hawk]

Might want to think about getting a new keyboard withaspacebarthatactuallyworks.

Thanks for the tip, but the problem isn't on this end. It happenswhen I post and no amount of editing fixes it. Any more ideas,send 'em on.

 

[qmaster3]

Thanks for the tip, but the problem isn't on this end. It happenswhen I post and no amount of editing fixes it. Any more ideas,send 'em on.

It happens to the best of us; even Frenchie.

 

[Alchemy]

Please don't ask why its the F-117 since it has no AA weapons - i dont' know

At least none that are declassified.....

 

[cougar6903]

As the name implies - "A" stands for ATTACK. If it were a Fighter, it were "F", like F-15, or F-16. It it were a Bomber (level bomber), it were "B", like the B-2. Some aircraft, like the F/A-18 have both "F" & "A". If its a "U" its a Utility aircraft, such as the U-2 Spy plane.

Please don't ask why its the F-117 since it has no AA weapons - i dont' know

Thanks, I think anyone with the least bit of interest in aviation knows that. Just wanted to know if A-10 pilots are considered fighter or attack pilots, or both.

 

[Frmr Avro Drvr]

Please don't ask why its the F-117 since it has no AA weapons - i dont' know

The "F" designation on the F-117 was more political than practical. There were two huge "Black World" project in work at the same time. One was a "fighter" (F-117) and one was a bomber (B-2). It would have been politically difficult to have 2 "Black world" stealth bomber programs at the same time. A fighter and bomber program were more easily justified.

Ya gotta love politics.

 

[pony251]

If we didn't do BFM we wouldn't get any counters during the winter months in MI where we can't see the ground. Plus, it is alot of fun. Nothing teaches you to fly a plane near the edge of it's envelope like BFM. If we are out hunting airplanes that are not on the ground then the Eagle and Viper guys have failed miserably. BTW, we are very happy to be Attack pilots.

Patmack, the hornet actually has a higher bleed rate than the hog, but your energy addition is far superior to ours. The hornet is actually about the only fighter than can match a hog in the 1 circle arena thanks to your ability to fly at high alpha. It is not the same as fighting a Viper. We will usually only get one shot so we try to make it count with the gun.

 

[cougar6903]

If we didn't do BFM we wouldn't get any counters during the winter months in MI where we can't see the ground. Plus, it is alot of fun. Nothing teaches you to fly a plane near the edge of it's envelope like BFM. If we are out hunting airplanes that are not on the ground then the Eagle and Viper guys have failed miserably. BTW, we are very happy to be Attack pilots.

Patmack, the hornet actually has a higher bleed rate than the hog, but your energy addition is far superior to ours. The hornet is actually about the only fighter than can match a hog in the 1 circle arena thanks to your ability to fly at high alpha. It is not the same as fighting a Viper. We will usually only get one shot so we try to make it count with the gun.

Thanks for all the Great info Pony,

What is your opinion of the A-10 after flying the F/A-18? My goal is to fly one someday in the Air Force. Any pros/cons you can share would be appreciated. Thanks Steve

 

[Quillpig]

Please don't ask why its the F-117 since it has no AA weapons - i dont' know

As it was explained to me by an F-117 pilot, fighter pilots don't fly bombers.

QP

 

[414Flyer]

If we didn't do BFM we wouldn't get any counters during the winter months in MI where we can't see the ground. Plus, it is alot of fun. Nothing teaches you to fly a plane near the edge of it's envelope like BFM. If we are out hunting airplanes that are not on the ground then the Eagle and Viper guys have failed miserably. BTW, we are very happy to be Attack pilots.

Patmack, the hornet actually has a higher bleed rate than the hog, but your energy addition is far superior to ours. The hornet is actually about the only fighter than can match a hog in the 1 circle arena thanks to your ability to fly at high alpha. It is not the same as fighting a Viper. We will usually only get one shot so we try to make it count with the gun.

One of my friends who flies 16s went up against 3 of you battle creek hog drivers. There was a verticle restriction on the 16 so he just couldnt go hog poppin', he was forced into a horizontal turning fight against 3 circling Hogs. He never did get a kill, but he didnt get killed either, just ended up beign a stalemate.

An attack plane getting an F designation is not new to the F-117. The F-111 comes to mind. It did have a limited A/A ability, but it was a dedicated strike aircraft. I think however they might have occasionally gotten an 16 kill at Red Flag but getting in behind an unsuspecting viper

 

[Frmr Avro Drvr]

One of my friends who flies 16s went up against 3 of you battle creek hog drivers. There was a verticle restriction on the 16 so he just couldnt go hog poppin', he was forced into a horizontal turning fight against 3 circling Hogs. He never did get a kill, but he didnt get killed either, just ended up beign a stalemate.

An attack plane getting an F designation is not new to the F-117. The F-111 comes to mind. It did have a limited A/A ability, but it was a dedicated strike aircraft. I think however they might have occasionally gotten an 16 kill at Red Flag but getting in behind an unsuspecting viper

That is why the later aircraft were referred to as FB-111 and EF-111. Pure Bred F-111s weren't around very long. About the time the USAF learned the best way to implement the FB-111 they retired them.

 

[414Flyer]

That is why the later aircraft were referred to as FB-111 and EF-111. Pure Bred F-111s weren't around very long. About the time the USAF learned the best way to implement the FB-111 they retired them.

Actually not really true. The F-111s were around longer than the FB models. ACC/TAC whichever got the FB models around 91 I think and they were then called the F-111G afterwards. But they were not kept around that long afterwards, since they were quite a bit different than the other models (different avionics, wing, etc)

The D-F models were around until about 96 I think, and I think the EF (converted A model "Spark Vark) was around until 98.

F-111 was probably the fastest plane (known at least) except for the SR-71 the USAF had.

 

[fastandlow]

F-111 was probably the fastest plane (known at least) except for the SR-71 the USAF had.

Really. what about the F-4? I thought the Phantom was faster.

 

[Frmr Avro Drvr]

Actually not really true. The F-111s were around longer than the FB models. ACC/TAC whichever got the FB models around 91 I think and they were then called the F-111G afterwards. But they were not kept around that long afterwards, since they were quite a bit different than the other models (different avionics, wing, etc)

The D-F models were around until about 96 I think, and I think the EF (converted A model "Spark Vark) was around until 98.

F-111 was probably the fastest plane (known at least) except for the SR-71 the USAF had.

You are right and I stand corrected. I had it backward.

"Seventy-six were built as FB-111s and saw service with the Strategic Air Command until 1990 when they were converted to F-111Gs and assigned to Tactical Air Command. The F-111G was assigned to the 27th Fighter Wing at Cannon Air Force Base and was used in a training role only. The conversion made minor avionics updates and strengthened the aircraft to allow its use in a more dynamic role as a fighter aircraft. "

 

[414Flyer]

F-111 was still faster, although an hard wing (unslatted) F-4 could still be pretty freaking fast, apparently even giving an F-15 a run for its money under certain conditions.

I have heard of 2.8 being reached on check flights in a D model, and the F still had more power. One of friends who flew a D model has flown at M1.15 at sea level with empty bomb racks, and didnt have every burner stage going.

 

[pony251]

Thanks for all the Great info Pony,

What is your opinion of the A-10 after flying the F/A-18? My goal is to fly one someday in the Air Force. Any pros/cons you can share would be appreciated. Thanks Steve

I love the HOG. It is the airplane the Marines should have bought. It is the best at what it does, CAS not BFM. It is the perfect guard airplane because it is very forgiving and it just isn't that hard to actually fly. Some of the tactics and weapons are a diferent matter. The community, both active and guard, is great as well. It is a much different flavor, neither good or bad, than you see in some other F-types. I don't regret flying the Hornet first. I am probably the wrong guy to ask about joining the AF. I never did AF upt but after talking to the bros. about it I don't think I would have done well in that environment. Do a search in the military section. There are several threads about this very subject.

 

[cougar6903]

I love the HOG. It is the airplane the Marines should have bought. It is the best at what it does, CAS not BFM. It is the perfect guard airplane because it is very forgiving and it just isn't that hard to actually fly. Some of the tactics and weapons are a diferent matter. The community, both active and guard, is great as well. It is a much different flavor, neither good or bad, than you see in some other F-types. I don't regret flying the Hornet first. I am probably the wrong guy to ask about joining the AF. I never did AF upt but after talking to the bros. about it I don't think I would have done well in that environment. Do a search in the military section. There are several threads about this very subject.

Thanks for all the great info. One more if anyone knows the answer. Did most A-10's fly to Afganistan and Iraq during the war? I saw some pictures of A-10's with the wings removed being loaded into C-5's.

Do A-10's take part in Red Flag or is that only for F- aircraft?