Question about legality (Take 2)

[Kneeboards Rock]

So I fly a turn the other day with a FA who was reassigned to my pairing. On the way back she explains how scheduling used bullying tactics to get her to accept the trip despite having only a 7:30 overnight. Her schedule was such that it could not have been a stand-up or nap overnight, and thus was a violation of CFR 121.471. My question is can I, as CA, be at fault for flying with a non-legal FA. As I said we were already on the way back before I found out, but does that free me and my FO from any wrongdoing? I know the company is at fault but what about us? After MESA in Hawaii I would imagine that the FAA is very concerned about rest requirements.

 

[prtyprtyprncss]

I don't think the Feds can come after you for that...I mean, you don't check your FO's medical before every flight, right? It's the FO's responsibility not yours...now if the FA showed up intoxicated the Feds might reasonably expect you to notice...

 

[Kneeboards Rock]

Good points.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

But the real point is can you get your hair gel out of your backpack with a kneeboard on? And will you get any on your ipod when switching between Debbie Gibson tracks?
PBR

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

I had a Fed suggest that I could be busted once because my FA forgot her manual. I didn't agree, but after that I always asked the FAs if they were "all set" or did they "need anything".

They prolly thought I was just being nice, but it was actually a little bit of CYA.

I also delayed a flight once because screwsked rescheduled my brand new FO for 815hrs in one duty period. He didn't want to fight it, but I wasn't gonna push when I knew I had an FO that wasn't legal to start.


I'd say if you're aware, you're in the snare, too.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

What if the FA and FO are retarded?

 

[CA1900]

... screwsked rescheduled my brand new FO for 815hrs in one duty period...

Wow, that's harsh... that's almost 5 weeks straight without a break!

 

[flyf15]

If you know that you have a crewmember who is illegal to operate the flight and you do anyways, you can get yourself in some serious hot water.

I'm sure you FOM has something in it along the lines of "The captain ensures the safe and legal operation of the flight"


Additionally, duty/block/rest regs are not company suggestions, they're federal law. They're not something you negotiate with crew scheduling... tell your affected crewmember to refuse the flight. If they don't, do it yourself. Simple as that. If they were illegal for the flight, theres no way they can be disciplined for not operating it. I'd rather have the company after me with discipline that can't stick than the FAA after me for discipline that WILL stick. Brand new FOs and especially new FAs sometimes don't understand this. Enlighten them.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Wow, that's harsh... that's almost 5 weeks straight without a break!

Yeah, but he had a nice break from Jan to Aug.

 

[Kneeboards Rock]

I know what the FA should have done and I did educate her on the law. She was new and I give her credit for knowing the contract as well as she did, however, she was not sure what was FAR's and what was contractual. She had her contract with her and I was looking through it to see if it explained the difference to them, but it wasn't clear, so I can see how she would be uncertain. Her inflight manual did explain the FAR's but that's not the text you usually look to when wondering if you are getting screwed by scheduling. As for myself, I only found out on the way back in flight so I know I didn't do anything wrong intentionally, but is that enough to cover me. I'm not really worried about this case , it's more of question for the future.

 

[flyf15]

Well, one other thing I would do in your circumstance... for the future...

Call crew scheduling and ask them the simple question "Is Flight Attendant XYZ legal to operate this flight?"

If the flight attendant isn't legal and they answer no.... problem solved, get a new FA. If the flight attendant isn't legal and they answer yes... you have a very solid leg to stand on if you're ever doing a carpet dance over it. I'm sure your FOM also specifies that crew scheduling shares joint responsibility for the legality of crewmembers.

 

[dispatchguy]

I didnt think 121.471 applies to flight attendants, only operating flight crew, unless your carrier has OpSpecs A032, which permits carriers to use pilot limitations for F/As.

 

[regionalcap]

It doesn't. It should be 121.467. A flight attendant is not a flight crew member.

 

[regionalcap]

It's not your job to keep with with the rest requirements of the flight attendants. However, if you knowingly too off with an illegal FA then that's another story. I don't think you have anything to worry about in this case. Your flight attendant might though.

 

[Kneeboards Rock]

Ah, I see. I guess I assumed that an FA was a flight crew member and didn't read the regs any further. My FOM talks about flight crew members and I figured that meant FA's too since it didn't say pilots. I guess they are leaving the door open for getting planes with engineers.

 

[Soverytired]

Ah, I see. I guess I assumed that an FA was a flight crew member and didn't read the regs any further. My FOM talks about flight crew members and I figured that meant FA's too since it didn't say pilots. I guess they are leaving the door open for getting planes with engineers.

As previously stated, it varies airline to airline. At Mesa before I left, flight attendants were approved under the ops specs to fly under the same rules as the pilots.

Does this make the CA responsible? Technically, yes, but it would be hard to see the FAA prosecuting a captain who had no knowledge. If she tells you there's a problem, it's best to call crew tracking or ask to see her logbook.

Logbook? Well, if your op specs require the FA's to have the same rest as you, then the FA will also be required to have a logbook. If he/she doesn't have one when you ask, it's time to bring the chief pilot into the mix for specific (and recorded) instructions on how to proceed.

Never, ever be afraid to call the chief pilot about anything, and delay the flight as long as it takes to get his input.

 

[Kneeboards Rock]

Oh I would have called the CP if I knew about it -- especially since it was the last turn on the pairing and we are so hard up on FA's that the flight would most likely have been cancelled.

 

[shamrock]

But the real point is can you get your hair gel out of your backpack with a kneeboard on? And will you get any on your ipod when switching between Debbie Gibson tracks?
PBR

Might want to fix the contradiction in your stereotype there, PBR. Do you really think any 20-something, Oakley wearing, iPod sporting, gel haired pilot is going to know who Debbie Gibson is, let alone listen to her?

 

[Soverytired]

Oh I would have called the CP if I knew about it -- especially since it was the last turn on the pairing and we are so hard up on FA's that the flight would most likely have been cancelled.

I get what you're saying. You want a "black and white" answer to the question: "Is the captain responsible to check that every crewmember is adequately rested and legal to fly?"

I don't have that answer, because it's deliberately "gray". Certainly, if a FA brings it to your attention, you'd better stop everything and get a definitive answer. Otherwise, incorporating it into your crew briefing ("Everyone is legal and ready, right?) probably would cover it.

Oh . . . who cares if a flight gets canceled due to a shortage of FA's? That's the company's problem, not yours. Your ticket isn't worth looking the other way "just this once."

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Might want to fix the contradiction in your stereotype there, PBR. Do you really think any 20-something, Oakley wearing, iPod sporting, gel haired pilot is going to know who Debbie Gibson is, let alone listen to her?

Therein lies the conundrum, of the scenario. Anyone who does all of the above would most likely listen to something like Debbie Gibson.
Still good for yuks though!
PBR