Question about climb/descent rates

[=w=]

Alright I've had 2 captains now tell me the same thing... but I think they're nuts. They tell me that in a descent ATC wants you to maintain at least 1000fpm with a hard descent (descend and maintain...) or a discretion descent. I think this is BS.

What I know is what's in the AIM... that you should climb/descend at an "optimum rate" until you're within 1000ft of your level off altitude, at which point you do 500-1500fpm until level. You must also tell ATC if you are unable to maintain 500fpm in a climb or descent. In my view optimum rate is 500fpm descent until I'm on about a 3 degree glidepath to the crossing fix.

I am 99% sure I am right but I have to ask...

 

[mar]

You're right to refer to the AIM

But I'd disagree with you on your interpretation of "optimum".

That might be your preferred rate (500fpm) but for ATC purposes they want you down today.

The optimum rate is gonna depend on the type of aircraft but for a turbo jet you're probably expected to do 3000fpm.

 

[CloudyIFR]

It all depends on where your flying. In sparsely populated areas you can get away with 500FPM but other places they'll want much more.


We do 6,000 FPM up and down in our Learjet!

 

[MauleSkinner]

Having seen no "official" definition, optimum rate to me means a shallower rate until I intercept my "optimum" profile.

Fly safe!

David

 

[=w=]

Right... it all depends on what you want to "optimize"

 

[igneousy2]

That's B.S. -- do whatever you want >=500 fpm...if they want something different they will tell you. "expedite through 5000'" for example.

It's total BS to "have to" do 1000 fpm during a discretion descent. You don't have to descend at all if you don't want to.

This captain is probably passive/aggresive. What he means is "I want you to descend at at least 1,000 fpm" but instead he says "the regs require you to descend at 1,000 fpm."

Later

 

[mar]

Semantics

This is why pilots get treated like children. Because they play games.

Look, if you're given a discretionary descent that means you can *begin* the descent when you like. But once it's begun, ATC *expects* you to start down to your next assigned altitude without dickin' around with "his" airspace.

You're not the only airplane in the sky.

Fly like a professional and get treated like one.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Look, if you're given a discretionary descent that means you can *begin* the descent when you like. But once it's begun, ATC *expects* you to start down to your next assigned altitude without dickin' around with "his" airspace.

On the other hand, if he tells me to start down early, without specifying a rate, he can expect a reduced rate until I intercept my profile. It may be "his" airspace, but it's "MY" fuel that he's dickin' around with.

Fly safe!

David

 

[mar]

This ain't rocket science

Nobody's talking about early descents.

If you refer to the first post by =w= and the sixth post by igneously2 you'll see, once again, we're talking about either so called "hard" descents or discretionary descents.

Why would you begin a discretionary descent early?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Nobody's talking about early descents.

If you refer to the first post by =w= and the sixth post by igneously2 you'll see, once again, we're talking about either so called "hard" descents or discretionary descents.

Why would you begin a discretionary descent early?

If they give me a "hard" descent early, is it not an "early" descent?

 

[mar]

For cryin out loud

Well, my friend, in that case I think they want you down.

I don't care. Fly your way. I'll fly mine.

 

[HawkerF/O]

I always plan a 3 degree decent and NEVER have problems. I take the altitude I need to loose, add 10 miles to get set up and another 5-10 so I can be at 3000 AGL 10 miles from the field. I think if you do that you'll be OK. Also, if they start me down sooner than I want, I'll ask, "Is that pilot's discretion?" Sometimes they will say ok and other times they will say "No, I need you to start down now." If they start me down real early, I'll dump 500 fpm on them and though I dont get that much, I have never had them say anything about it. When they start you down early like that, I think they expect a minimal decent rate.
Tell the Capts you are unfamiliar with that requirement and ask them where in the AIM it can be found so you can reference if for learning purposes. They'll be unable to comply. The ones that have said 500 fpm minimum are correct. Also, below 10, I would reccomend 1000 fpm and no more than 1500 fpm. Anything below 10 will be no more than 1200-1300 fpm (depending on GS) for 3 degrees and you'll be able to Don't forget TCAS. Depending on what version you have, 1000 fpm or greater will set it off unless you both have revison 7 and TCAS II.
Finally, at the end of the day, no matter what a jerk or how cool the Capt is, he is ultimately responsible for the aircraft. He is under no obligation to let you fly, and since he is letting you fly he should let you fly it in the manner which you prefer unless you are not being smooth or doing something unsafe. With that said, if there is a way he wants the airplane flown, and it is safe, you should do you best to accomadate his desire. I say that because you want him to be comfortable with the way you fly so you can fly as often as you want. Just dont break any regs or do anything to put yourself at risk. If he wants you to do something one way and you want to do it another and its all a wash at the end of the day, tell him you prefer to do it like this and tell him why. He might be able to teach you something or you might be able to teach him something. Good luck to you

 

[Lead Sled]

I always plan a 3 degree decent and NEVER have problems. I take the altitude I need to loose, add 10 miles to get set up and another 5-10 so I can be at 3000 AGL 10 miles from the field. I think if you do that you'll be OK. Also, if they start me down sooner than I want, I'll ask, "Is that pilot's discretion?" Sometimes they will say ok and other times they will say "No, I need you to start down now." If they start me down real early, I'll dump 500 fpm on them and though I dont get that much, I have never had them say anything about it. When they start you down early like that, I think they expect a minimal decent rate.

That has worked well for me for over 30 years. If they want more descent out of you they'll let you know.

That being said, there are certain areas where experience tells you that you're going to be starting down early. It will do no good to fight it. ATC uses letters of agreement to coordinate traffic flow. It helps to discover the fixes and altitudes - If we can't figure it out from experience we'll ask the controller for future reference. We program the FMS accordingly.

'Sled

 

[Say Again Over]

2 cents

Cooperate and graduate, I'm sure you could point out how much each captain is messed up but what will that due for CRM, I don't think there is anything wrong with the technique you use for the crossing restriction, but don't get in a pissing contest over it.:beer:

 

[onthebeach]

Here's a little trick for you

Whenever you fly with a new Captain and are asked (if you are) which leg you want, always find a way to get the Cap to fly the first leg.

Then pay close attention to any "techniques" he/she exhibits.

When it's your leg, just do the same as the Cap did, and you'll never have any "friction" in the cockpit.

This always worked for me whenever I was in the right seat, and it'll do the same for you.

 

[mobie]

Most ATC world wide think that you will use 5xgroundspeed for the rate. 400kts=2000 fpm.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Little bit of apples and oranges. Pilots discretion: They probably don't care too much what you do.

Crossing restriction: probably don't care much what you do as long as you meet the restriction.

Plain old descent clearance: Depends on where you are, but likely 2000fpm is expected. I have seen it many times flying with someone especially in the NY area, where they descend slow because we are far out, only to have ATC tell us to increase descent rate.

Sometimes I encourage FOs to pick up the rate so ATC wont have to.

500 fpm is good for unpressurized airplanes, but that isn't what we are flying, and thats not how ATC will expect us to fly.

 

[ashaman]

For those of you that are concerned about ATC telling you to increase your rate of descent, why are you concerned? If a pilot wants to descend at 500fpm to conserve fuel, that's his prerogative. If ATC needs you to 'pick-up' your rate of descent they'll tell you. So what if they do? Are we to fly around wasting fuel by descending out of altitude earlier or faster than necessary just because we're afraid that ATC will tell us to increase our rate of descent? A professional pilot should try to conserve fuel and that means staying as high as possible as long as possible (consistent with meeting xing restrictions, explicit ATC directives, etc.).
My suggestion would be to politely explain your reasoning once. If the PIC is too dense to understand, better just go along with what he/she wants and swallow your pride and common sense.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Ok, I found the closest thing to an optimum rate in the Air Traffic Controller's Handbook, Appendix A. They have listed the average rate of descent and climb based upon the aircraft's performance.

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/atc/Appendices/atcapda.html

Now, the way I understand the link, the numbers listed are an average and are not hard and fast. Therefore, the best guideline is probably this. If you can't maintain the required 500 fpm climb or descent report it. Other wise, fly the descent profile that best fits the situation. Yes, there is more than one profile to descend with. I use the 3 degree when I'm facing a head wind and then I use fpm for tail winds. The idea being I go as far as I can as I high as I can until I reach a preset fpm that is steep, but do-able and comfortable for the passengers.