Question About A Real Rhino

[Purpledog]

I saw an F-4 land yesterday with drag chute deployed. First, I didn't think there were anymore that weren't painted orange with a bullseye on the side. Anyway, is that chute really necessary on a 10k runway and when you take it on the road who packs it up?

 

[727C47]

was it landing at Mugu?

 

[ExAF]

F-4 Chute

There are no more active duty, guard or reserve F-4s out there that aren't drone material; however, there are some privately owned and "planes of fame type" owned F-4s still flying. I'm not sure of the organizations that fly them.
As for the drag chute, it probably wasn't absolutely necessary for the 10K runway unless it was really heavy. In the AF, we were required to use the chute on every landing. It saved wear and tear on the brakes. I would imagine if a privately owned F-4 was paying for brake maintenance, they would use the chute all of the time as well. Usually the "chute shop" would repack them but the pilot can stuff it back in as well if you know what you are doing. Having a broomstick handy was a big help as well.

 

[Mud Eagle]

There is *one* civilian F-4 flying...the one owned by the Collings Foundation.

http://www.collingsfoundation.org/tx_f-4dphantom.htm

From their website:

However, major legal obstacles were encountered when individuals made efforts to acquire non-demiled (demiled combat jets are not flight-worthy) US-built combat jets in America or from abroad. Despite these obstacles, the Collings Foundation decided that it was going to try to acquire and restore a Phantom for flight exhibition. Accordingly, it took an act of Congress by means of an amendment to the Defense Authorization Bill of 1999 to allow the Collings Foundation to acquire its F-4 Phantom.

 

[JimNtexas]

Doesn't USAF still operate F-4s at the target squardron at Tyndall and the German training uint?

BAE converts the old F-4s and Mojhave for use as targets.

 

[Weasel Keeper]

The Germans retired their F-4Fs from HO a year ago.

*edit, misread* HO may still operate QF-4E/Gs, and Tyndall does for sure.

Other than the Collings Foundation, there are a group of 4-6 F-4E/Gs Tyndall has painted back up in old paint schemes to do airshows and Heritage Flights.

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

There are F-4s flying today in America. They don't belong to the USAF or USN. The German Luftwaffe has a training squadron and they routinely air refuel with USAF tankers. The Japanese Self Defense Force are also still flying phantoms. FWIW.

OK. Strike the above regarding the Germans as I had not heard they were done. But as far as I know the Japanese are still flying F-4s. The Australians are still flying F-111s BTW.

 

[Mud Eagle]

There are F-4s flying today in America. They don't belong to the USAF or USN. The German Luftwaffe has a training squadron and they routinely air refuel with USAF tankers. The Japanese Self Defense Force are also still flying phantoms. FWIW.

The German F-4s have been retired for over a year.

 

[DaveGriffin]

There are no more active duty, guard or reserve F-4s out there that aren't drone material; however, there are some privately owned and "planes of fame type" owned F-4s still flying. I'm not sure of the organizations that fly them.
As for the drag chute, it probably wasn't absolutely necessary for the 10K runway unless it was really heavy. In the AF, we were required to use the chute on every landing. It saved wear and tear on the brakes. I would imagine if a privately owned F-4 was paying for brake maintenance, they would use the chute all of the time as well. Usually the "chute shop" would repack them but the pilot can stuff it back in as well if you know what you are doing. Having a broomstick handy was a big help as well.

A chute on every landing on a 10,000' runway?? It seems a terrible and criminal abuse of a great airplane designed for carrier landings that uses only 75 ft of carrier deck to come to a complete stop. I guess it all depends on the pilot.

 

[stonewall]

A chute on every landing on a 10,000' runway?? It seems a terrible and criminal abuse of a great airplane designed for carrier landings that uses only 75 ft of carrier deck to come to a complete stop. I guess it all depends on the pilot.

75 feet of carrier deck AND AN ARRESTING CABLE, you moron. Why don't you leave the pilot stuff to the pilots, Dave.

 

[Mamma]

Did the Turks retire their F4s too?

 

[DaveGriffin]

75 feet of carrier deck AND AN ARRESTING CABLE, you moron. Why don't you leave the pilot stuff to the pilots, Dave.

Show an arresting cable to an AF fighter guy and he gets physically ill. Especially when he considers trying to catch it at night in a sea state 3.

He'll regain his composure (after blowing his cookies) when you show him a 9K ft runway.

 

[SIG600]

Show an arresting cable to an AF fighter guy and he gets physically ill. Especially when he considers trying to catch it at night in a sea state 3.

He'll regain his composure (after blowing his cookies) when you show him a 9K ft runway.

Which you've done how many times? And the pay out is a hell of a lot more than 75'.

 

[dtfl]

Doesn't USAF still operate F-4s at the target squardron at Tyndall and the German training uint?

BAE converts the old F-4s and Mojhave for use as targets.

My buddy, actually my old gunship Nav, went to UPT, flew light grays, then F4s at Holloman..he told me some good stories...he said during Initial Qual/BFM at Holloman, his IP asked why he didn't pull over the top to get a solution on a guy and he said "I didn't think this thing could DO THAT?!?!?!" He told me the radar lock indicators were on the canpy rails, etc....but he enjoyed flying a piece of the past....

 

[dtfl]

75 feet of carrier deck AND AN ARRESTING CABLE, you moron. Why don't you leave the pilot stuff to the pilots, Dave.

Hey Magnum...aren't there 3 cables...in case you miss one....MORE than 75' of deck to land on...and you throw the throttles into burner in CASE??
Seems a bit more than 75' of RWY.

 

[stearmann4]

ROK F-4s

The South Koreans were still flying Phantoms at K2 as of a year ago.

 

[McGillicutty]

Show an arresting cable to an AF fighter guy and he gets physically ill. Especially when he considers trying to catch it at night in a sea state 3.

He'll regain his composure (after blowing his cookies) when you show him a 9K ft runway.

Haha! I knew he was gonna say some stupid sh*t like that.

 

[Gorilla]

WHY the heck doesn't the stupid U.S. Govt sell off surplus military aircraft, unless they're first torch cut or chopped into little pieces? Are they afraid that some dude in Idaho is going to buy a T-37, F-4, F-105, and declare independence based upon his private air force? There are so many cool jets waiting to get airborne again. What a shame.

 

[Weasel Keeper]

You can buy surplus aircraft from foreign countries that the US sold to them. I believe a lot of privately owned fighters (F-100s, F-104s, T-38s, etc) came from Canada and/or elsewhere.

 

[stonewall]

Show an arresting cable to an AF fighter guy and he gets physically ill. Especially when he considers trying to catch it at night in a sea state 3.

He'll regain his composure (after blowing his cookies) when you show him a 9K ft runway.

Bud in my unit took an approach end cable after blowing a tire on takeoff last week. No shakes, no puking, no Mayday calls...just a standard approach end cable arrestment with a shredded left tire. Amazing.

 

[SIG600]

Bud in my unit took an approach end cable after blowing a tire on takeoff last week. No shakes, no puking, no Mayday calls...just a standard approach end cable arrestment with a shredded left tire. Amazing.

Must be contageous. I had to take a field arrestment last week too. However according to Dave, I wasn't nervous at all. Uh huh... as I cinch down my lap belts and double check the position of the party handle.

 

[bcangf16]

Talked to an F-4 guy at our airshow recently. F-4's are still flying using contract pilots to ride while being remotely piloted. This is so they can check out on a console while a pilot can still take over if needed. Kinda like riding on the back of a motorcycle..........Mostly for Tyndall drones.

 

[skybert]

That must suck when they shoot the drone down..

 

[727C47]

its a non-union shop...

 

[Huggyu2]

Remember: just ignore Dave. Pretend his posts do not exist.

 

[ExAF]

Yeah

Remember: just ignore Dave. Pretend his posts do not exist.

And quit quoting him so those of us who ignore him don't have to see his dribble.

 

[Big Wave]

A litttle background on the whole "drone" thing, hopefully answering some questions:

--F-4s are given a "return to service" inspection at Davis-Monthan ("the boneyard"), and then sent to Mojave to be given remote-control capability by BAE (becoming "QF-4s")
--The 82d Aerial Target Squadron (Tyndall) and its Det 1 (Holloman) are America's last F-4 phylers--they are active-duty units charged with administering and supervising the drone operations and maintenance contracts
--QF-4 "riders" are officially called "safety pilots"; with a click of the autopilot disconnect paddle (front of the stick), the "QF-4" becomes an "F-4"--quick disconnects are a real necessity under high G/low altitude/dynamic maneuvers (or worse, during botched landings)
--QF-4s are flown "manned" for the following reasons: to give remote-controllers (all Lockheed-Martin contractors; all highly-experienced ex-fighter pilots) their continuation training (area maneuvers and takeoffs/landings); to fly "dress rehearsals" of live-fire missions (to ensure that both shooter and target achieve the required parameters of the shot); and between one and hundreds of "data gathering" missions (where QF-4s are placed in front of whatever missile/sensor is being tested, in order to validate lab-bench data)
--Most of the missiles fired have instrumentation packages vice warheads; a large percentage of the unmanned QF-4s launched are also landed (to be used again another day)--as missiles/sensors get better, this recovery rate drops
--USAF QF-4s do not have a "camera" in the nose; the remote-controller has instrumentation similar to any PC flight sim; when QF-4s are flown unmanned, they are escorted through the takeoff and landing process by a manned QF-4 (to act as additional "eyes and ears" of the controller)
--Live-fire testing against "full-scale" targets (i.e. converted fighters) is required by Title X, United States Code (otherwise, we would use the much-less-expensive subscale drones--MQM-107 and BQM-34--all the time)
--'Tis a much more honorable fate for these mighty airplanes than being turned into bulk scrap in the Arizona desert

 

[stonewall]

A litttle background on the whole "drone" thing, hopefully answering some questions:

--F-4s are given a "return to service" inspection at Davis-Monthan ("the boneyard"), and then sent to Mojave to be given remote-control capability by BAE (becoming "QF-4s")
--The 82d Aerial Target Squadron (Tyndall) and its Det 1 (Holloman) are America's last F-4 phylers--they are active-duty units charged with administering and supervising the drone operations and maintenance contracts
--QF-4 "riders" are officially called "safety pilots"; with a click of the autopilot disconnect paddle (front of the stick), the "QF-4" becomes an "F-4"--quick disconnects are a real necessity under high G/low altitude/dynamic maneuvers (or worse, during botched landings)
--QF-4s are flown "manned" for the following reasons: to give remote-controllers (all Lockheed-Martin contractors; all highly-experienced ex-fighter pilots) their continuation training (area maneuvers and takeoffs/landings); to fly "dress rehearsals" of live-fire missions (to ensure that both shooter and target achieve the required parameters of the shot); and between one and hundreds of "data gathering" missions (where QF-4s are placed in front of whatever missile/sensor is being tested, in order to validate lab-bench data)
--Most of the missiles fired have instrumentation packages vice warheads; a large percentage of the unmanned QF-4s launched are also landed (to be used again another day)--as missiles/sensors get better, this recovery rate drops
--USAF QF-4s do not have a "camera" in the nose; the remote-controller has instrumentation similar to any PC flight sim; when QF-4s are flown unmanned, they are escorted through the takeoff and landing process by a manned QF-4 (to act as additional "eyes and ears" of the controller)
--Live-fire testing against "full-scale" targets (i.e. converted fighters) is required by Title X, United States Code (otherwise, we would use the much-less-expensive subscale drones--MQM-107 and BQM-34--all the time)
--'Tis a much more honorable fate for these mighty airplanes than being turned into bulk scrap in the Arizona desert

Good summary. I worked a lot with the 82d when I was doing OT out of Eglin. Pretty cool capability, all in all. Of course, I'm dreading the first time I shoot a missile at QF-16, but I know the day will come.

 

[Mud Eagle]

deletedhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Hacker15E/AIM-7MH2v1.jpg

 

[DaveGriffin]

Bud in my unit took an approach end cable after blowing a tire on takeoff last week. No shakes, no puking, no Mayday calls...just a standard approach end cable arrestment with a shredded left tire. Amazing.

I'm sure it was a spectacular recovery, but without the possibility of a ramp strike or crashing into 8,000 ft. deep of cold ocean water, I bet it didn't have the same sense of urgency that every Naval Aviator faces on every routine carrier landing.