Question:5th Freedom Procedures and UAL

[brucek]

I've just come back from a vacation in New Zealand, where the papers were saying that UAL is quitting the route LAX to NZAA (Auckland). With Qantas about to buy Air New Zealand, this won't leave much competition on this route.

Qantas were also proudly advertising a new service LAX-ORD (they already do LAX-JFK). I'm assuming this is 5th Freedom stuff (on routing existing international pax to ORD / JFK). How does an international airline get these rights? Are they readily available to any international operator? (I would have to wonder what demand they expect since they're planning on using B744's that have flown in from Australia / New Zealand). Qantas are in the same alliance as AA and BA, if that makes any difference.

Thanks.

Bruce.

 

[njcapt]

As far as I know from my E-R Aviation Legislation class, no foreign airline has Fifth Freedom rights in the US. Qantas has had direct flights from AU to LAX and JFK for a while. They are prohibited from boarding any originating passengers in the US to any other US city. If they add ORD to the mix, I assume the same restrictions would exist.

 

[brucek]

Thanks njcapt,

I may be mistaken here. My understanding of 5th freedom priviliges is an international airline landing at airport A, discharging some pax to customs but keeping others to fly onto airport B, where both A and B are in the same country (as in YMML-KLAX-KJFK, which is currently flown by QF).

Maybe you thought I referred to cabotage, the uplifting of pax from A to B only? That would directly compete with domestic airlines.

I may be wrong in the reference to "5th freedom". The article referred to extending QF's services to KORD through it's "LAX hub".

Bruce.

 

[njcapt]

Yeah, I could never keep all the numbered 'freedoms' straight. Part of the reason I couldn't get better than a C in the class. If I can find my textbook I'll post a followup. I don't know if there is some special authority granted to airlines that gather passengers in several US cities. Numerous international airlines follow the process.

 

[ozpilot]

I seem to remember that fifth freedom rights does allow a foreign carrier to fly pax domestically but only if that pax flew into the country on the same carrier.

An example would be if QF flew a pax form SYD to LAX where they deplaned for a few days and then flew QF again to JFK.

 

[brucek]

Thanks njcapt- yes, these treaties are obviously the product of a bunch of lawyers!!!

ozpilot-that's an interesting take on 5th freedom rights, and may very well be correct (I'm a self-decleared novice on these treaties, other than they appear to be fiercely enforced by encumbant carriers to protect existing route authorities). That would presume that a pax would deplane at LAX (in your example) via customs, but then would need to go through emmigation again at LAX (since a QF ship is legally Australian soil anywhere in the world), and redo the customs thing at JFK. Interesting subject.

Thanks for the replies so far,

Bruce.