Quality time?

[727PAA]

SIC

SIC cannot be logged because a company requires it nor if insurance requires it.

Case in Point..the Pilatus. The Pilatus is a single pilot certified airplane.
Just because a company says you will have a second pilot in the airplane does not mean that the pilot (not flying) can log that time.

61.159 ATP requirements: a commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight engineer time toward the 1,500 hr of total time

1. Second in command time provided it is acquired in an airplane-
(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the aiplanes flight manual, type certificate or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

This is what interviewers are looking for if you say you have SIC time in a turbine aircraft.

Also their are SIC requirements that must be met under FAR 61.55

Just something to look out for.

 

[A Squared]

I second what 727PAA says about logging SIC time. Ignore KSU_Aviator. Despite her "superior" KSU education, she's apparently failed to do the most basic of fact checking before posting; reading the printed regs. Take a look at the excerpt from the regs that 727PAA has graciously supplied. Notice that it only refers to requirements "........by the manual, the type certificate or regulations....." not ".....by the regulations, insurance requirements, company policy, or someone's grandmother"
61.51, which regulates the logging of all SIC time, not just that for an ATP, contains exactly the same language as 61.159

It doesn't matter a bit what the company or insurance policy wants, if a SIC not required by the regulations, you can't log it.

KSU's statement that you may not log Instrument time if you are not sole manipulator of the controls is somewhat questionable also. The regulation states that you can log if you are "operating" the airplane by reference to instruments. The issue hinges on what the definition of "operating" is. Certainly in other cases, the FAA has held that an SIC is operating the airplane, even if he isn't manipulating the controls. Additionally, when the FARs mean sole manipulator, they say "sole manipulator", giving further indication that "operating" does not mean "sole manipulator" For a more in depth discussion of this take a look at this link. http://www.propilot.com/doc/logging2.html#defin It is addressed down near the bottom of the page. In absence of an FAA legal counsel interpretation specifically addressing this, it is impossible to say for certain which is the correct interpretation. Personally, I log only that instrument time when I'm the PF. I'd rather fly like someone with twice my time than fly like someone with half my time, but that's just personal preference.

As far as KSU's statement about SIC qualifications, all I can say is ...... huuhhhhh?????? Let me get this straight, you're saying that you can just hop in any transport category aircraft and legaly serve as SIC, as long as you study the flight manual, systems, emergency procedures, performance specs, limitations and all that other stuff required by 61.55 sometime within the next 3 months?????????

really????? I didn't know that the FAA recognized retroactive flight training. Does this apply to other privileges as well? Can I act as PIC of a 747 as long as I get a type rating 90 days later?

Can you actually support this with some credible source, or are you making this up?

BTW it's "waived" not waved ..... I have to say, I'm getting less and less impressed with the quality of education avaiable at KSU



regards

 

[Colonel Cairo]

KSU,

So if you can't log IMC time unless you're handling the controls then that means as PNF you can't log night time either, right? Seems to me that they're both conditions of flight. Guess I better go back and delete all that IMC and night time I logged when I was an instructor. After all, I wasn't actually flying the plane.

Honestly, I really don't care how people log their IMC time, I just thought I'd open this can of worms again. It was either that or start another PFT thread and we all know how old that gets.

Cheers!

 

[Fr8Dog]

Hey Hot Section send me a private message I have some info on WisAv. I worked there as a line guy for 2 years and as a CFI for 6 months along with getting all my ratings there, not at MSN but at their Juneau FBO. I also know of a skydiving outfit near there that has 182's and if you want to build time fast you can log well over a 100hrs a month during the summer there. I may also have some other leads for flying jobs in the area.

 

[Bluto]

You can log instrument and night time as an SIC, regardless of whether you are the PF or PNF. Only the PF, however, can log instrument approches or landings towards currency, since part 61 requires that you be "sole manipulator" of the controls. Incidentally, as I understand it, you could log SIC under certain conditions in an aircraft certified for single-pilot operation, like the PC-12. As a safety pilot while the PF was under a view-limiting device, for example. I don't want to get into that debate, though.

 

[FlightTraker]

Hey hot section,
send me a PM if you want the skinny on the Appleton area. The outfit I used to instruct at has a rather large charter dept as well. I am also interested on any info you can give me about that PC-12 you were flying for the State.

FlightTraker

 

[avbug]

Bluto,

You are correct, sir!

A SIC may be required by the aircraft type certification, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted. Without reiterating what A Squared said (which was all quite correct), insurance or company requirements do not constitute the need for a SIC.

OpSpecs requiring a SIC do constitute the need for an SIC, for the purposes of logging the time. A single engine airplane operated under FAR 135 under IFR, for example, will need either an autopilot, or a SIC. In such a case, though the type certification allows single pilot operation, the OpSpecs will specify the need for a second pilot, when conducting flights under the operating certificate. In such a case, the SIC becomes a required crewmember. When the flight is operated under Part 91, the SIC is no longer required, and may not log the time.

 

[bobbysamd]

Instrument time

Bluto is indeed correct on logging instrument time. A CFI-I giving instrument instruction in actual instrument conditions (which is probably the only kind of instruction which can be given in actual instrument conditions ) can log as actual all time during which the flight is conducted in IMC. Of course, the CFI-I gets PIC and night, if applicable. In the meantime, contrary to at least one former FlightSafety Chief Pilot's belief, the CFI does NOT get the approaches that were executed, unless he/she was sole manipulator of the controls.

Ten years ago we had a Chief Pilot who was trying to sell us on the notion that instructors could count their students' approaches as their own for currency. I .... don't..... think.....so.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Ok, I was wrong about the 3 months...its 30 days.

To qualify as SIC you have to have the requirements met within the first 30 days if it is a 91 operation. Read 61.55 and you'll see that. Maybe some of you should try reading the whole thing instead of just the parts you want to read.

As far as the insurance company or operator requiring SIC's for single pilot aircraft, it is possible. If the insurance company is requiring the operator to use an SIC and the operator includes that requirement in its operating certification then by regulation, the SIC is required. Ops specs hold the same weight as a regulation, if you violate them you violate the FAR's. Even if its a part 91 operation.

Logging IMC as SIC and not actually flying the airplane isn't legal according to an inspector at the San Antonio FSDO. I forgot his name or I would post it so you could verify it. Try calling your local FSDO and asking...the FAA is here to help you.

By the way, CFI's aren't SIC so they really don't apply to this conversation do they?

By the way Squared....my dick is waaaayyyy longer then yours!


here is part of the regulation:

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command unless that person has within the previous 12 calendar months:

(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested --

(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.

(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.

(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.

(iv) Flight manual.

(v) Placards and markings.

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, performed and logged pilot time in the type of aircraft or in a flight simulator that represents the type of aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested, which includes --

(i) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop as the sole manipulator of the flight controls;

(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command; and

(iii) Crew resource management training.

(c) If a person complies with the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section in the calendar month before or the calendar month after the month in which compliance with this section is required, then that person is considered to have accomplished the training and practice in the month it is due.

 

[bobbysamd]

Instrument time

I just added my comment because a lot of questions come up on non-flying pilots, including CFIs and SICs, logging actual, night and approaches.