Qualified to fly.....

[mackinhoes]

Qualified to Defend....
Qualified to keep a job?

Everytime I open an alpa publication or go to the website, I see more crappola about arming pilots. I'm an admitted gun nut, but I'd rather have a decent paying unarmed flying job than sitting at home being a furloughee. All these loaded guns I have sitting around me as I'm typing don't help me pay the bills.

When is Duane Worthless going to get the picture?

 

[PCL_128]

Qualified to Defend....
Qualified to keep a job?

Everytime I open an alpa publication or go to the website, I see more crappola about arming pilots. I'm an admitted gun nut, but I'd rather have a decent paying unarmed flying job than sitting at home being a furloughee. All these loaded guns I have sitting around me as I'm typing don't help me pay the bills.

When is Duane Worthless going to get the picture?

While I will always fight for better pay and workrules, the safety of the flying public should be our primary concern.

What good is getting off of furlough if the plane you are flying is hijacked and flown into the Pentagon? We need to look at the big picture here. Our job is to get people from point A to point B SAFELY. I can't guarantee safety if I'm unarmed when a terrorist storms my flight deck.

I sympathize with those on furlough, and I hope to get everyone back to work as soon as possible. But making sure that terrorists cannot gain access to the flight deck is a much higher priority.

 

[ksu_aviator]

I like the new gun in the cockpit law. Its very conservative and solved some issues I had with it.

For example, I thought there would be a problem of getting the gun to the cockpit with out it getting stolen. So the law has them carrying the gun in a locked box in an ordinary bag.

I also think the rigorous background checks, psychological tests and ground school should make these armed pilot's very safe. Just do me a favor, if you are one of the armed pilots remember to keep the bullet in the magazine until you are ready to use it. I know military guys disagree with me, but a gun is not safe if it has a bullet in the chamber. Safeties fail and guns do go off accidently.

Just as an example, here in Tn a security guard's gun went off with out warning on his way to work shooting a person in the leg. This stuff just happens.

 

[KingAirer]

Can someone fill me in...
Are pilots going to be required to carry guns, or say at least one pilot out of the 2 or 3 has a gun?

 

[PCL_128]

Can someone fill me in...
Are pilots going to be required to carry guns, or say at least one pilot out of the 2 or 3 has a gun?

It will not be required. It is a volunteer program. Those that want to carry can sign up and take the classes given by the TSA to qualify to carry on the flight deck. Right now it isn't clear how many pilots will sign up since the TSA put a psych screening into the process. APSA, the organization that lobbied congress the most, is fighting this. APSA believes that requiring a psych test will scare pilots off from volunteering. Afterall, what happens if you fail the test? Will you then not be able to hold a medical? We'll probably end up seeing less than half of all airline pilots carrying.

 

[midlifeflyer]

ksu_aviator said

For example, I thought there would be a problem of getting the gun to the cockpit with out it getting stolen. So the law has them carrying the gun in a locked box in an ordinary bag.

and that keeps it from getting stolen by....?

 

[Singlecoil]

Re: Re: Qualified to fly.....

I can't guarantee safety if I'm unarmed when a terrorist storms my flight deck.

Are you honestly concerned about that happening today? I think any airline pilot who was flying prior to 9-11 understands that the "common strategy" played a huge role in what happened. That is gone now. I just don't think it is possible today that someone can gain access to the cockpit, kill both pilots, and take over the control of the aircraft. If that threat doesn't exist, then pilots don't need guns.

I agree with you that less than half of all pilots will be carrying. Way less than half.

 

[PCL_128]

Re: Re: Re: Qualified to fly.....

Are you honestly concerned about that happening today?

Where there's a will, there's a way. If terrorists want access to the flight deck, they will find a way to do it. Yes, it is much more difficult today. A few guys with boxcutters could not take over an aircraft now. But if they somehow got firearms onboard, they would easily subdue the FAs and pax and make their way to the flight deck. With a strengthened flight deck door and armed pilots I think we could fight them off. Without the armed pilots, we're screwed.

Believe me, there are many ways for terrorists to get a firearm on board an aircraft. Anyone that thinks otherwise is naive.

 

[Salty Dog]

All these security measures, and the entire TSA, were rendered obsolete the moment those passengers stormed the plane that ended up in the Pennsylvanian field. Everything else is just closing the barn door after the horse is gone.

Why that isn't so obvious to everybody else escapes me.

What a waste.

 

[tarp]

Amen, Salty Dog!

It's just not logical.

 

[Singlecoil]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Qualified to fly.....

With a strengthened flight deck door and armed pilots I think we could fight them off. Without the armed pilots, we're screwed.

It's really quite simple. Don't open the door. Not even if the flight attendant is getting her throat slit and everyone else for that matter. If they try to gain access when the door is open and someone is trying to use the head, close it. One pilot can fly the plane just fine.
Sure, they can blast away back there and shoot the control cables or whatever, but the point is to deny access to the controls of the aircraft. They can crash the plane that way, but they can't use it as a guided missle, which is the sole point of arming pilots.
You know darn well some armed pilot will try and be a hero and OPEN the secure door to come to the aid of a flight attendant. That is why it is not a good idea.

 

[PCL_128]

You don't really believe that keeping the door closed is going to keep them out, do you? Ever heard of C4? That door is coming open if they try hard enough. These aren't just some crazy kids with air rage! These are well trained terrorists that will stop at nothing to kill as many Americans as possible! All the door does is slow them down. Give them a couple minutes and the door will come open and you will be defenseless.

I don't know about you, but I don't like bringing a crashaxe to a gun fight.

 

[ksu_aviator]

I guess what I should have said, is that I was worried someone would be able to pick out a pilot that was carrying a weapon and grab it in the terminal. With it hidden and locked it can't just be grabbed and used. That is what I liked about the rule.

 

[mackinhoes]

The point was this: Why isn't Duane working on keeping salaries from free-falling, outsourcing by management, alter-ego airlines and fighting for the general welfare of the airline industry so we can keep our jobs, rather than being so concerned about packing heat in the cockpit.

I agree 110% with Salty Dog. The passengers nowadays are the the best security measure. They stopped that Richard Reid nut from blowing up his shoe bomb. They sure as hell are'nt going to let anything else happen again like 9-11.
Guns in the cockpit is a waste of time, energy and political capital.

 

[jumppilot]

Instead of arming pilots, why can't there be a program in place for "defensive flying"? At the first indication of problems, yank and bank! Put some loads on the A/C, that will keep people put.

I understand this could cause injuries for pax, but now there is a better reason than "airline policy" to keep your seatbelt on during flight.

We are paid to fly....

 

[Dieterly]

Salty Dog, you are spot on!!!! And for PFT_128, if they bring C4 onboard you are all dead anyway, so who cares? Arguing with PFT_128 is like arguing with a 3 year old, but then again what do you expect from 1000 hr wonder.

 

[trigeek]

I could care less about carrying a firearm..BUT if the training allows me to carry a badge or license or something that entitles me to bypass the whole security BS routine and just walk straight to the jet then I'm all for it. The TSA nazis can get a little over zealous at times...nevermind we have the controls of the aircraft.

 

[PCL_128]

Salty Dog, you are spot on!!!! And for PFT_128, if they bring C4 onboard you are all dead anyway, so who cares?

That is not at all accurate. A small amount of C4 used on a flight deck door would not destroy the aircraft. It will merely give them access to the flight deck by blowing open the door. Get your facts straight before acting like an idiot.

Arguing with PFT_128 is like arguing with a 3 year old, but then again what do you expect from 1000 hr wonder.

Very mature. You really put me to shame! (heavy sarcasm)

 

[46Driver]

The terrorists don't have to storm the flight deck - if they can force the pilots out of the cockpit ala CS gas or something similiarly unpleasant. Then the pilots only have 1 confined avenue out of the cockpit and terrorists on either side of the hatch would be more than a match for a pilot, armed or not. Why smuggle guns or something so obvious on the aircraft when it would be much more covert to have a ramper or mech disable the O2 supply and then carry some shaving cans full of CS onto the plane?

 

[ifly4food]

I agree completely that the armed pilots program is a waste. I am disappointd that my union is wasting resources that could be used to fight furloughs, restore jumpseat privilleges, etc to satisfy the egos of a few cowboys who want to feel important by "packing heat" on the flight deck.
The new procedures and new doors render the armed pilot idea moot.

PCL_128,
Once again I must point out that your arguments here are ridiculous.
By 1 APR all doors must be compliant with the new standards. That thing is a kevlar reinforced bank vault, and the only way someone's coming in is if the door is opened intentionally. In light of the new strategy, nobody is going to do that for any reason, unless their ego pushes them to go back and "shoot it out".

Use C4? Please.
First they would have to either get it past security or sneak it onboard with a ground worker. Both pretty slim propositions. Then they would have to get up, walk to the cockpit door, attach the C4, attach the detonator, attach the ignition system, and blow the door before the passengers attack. Are you really saying passengers will sit by and just watch this take place?
Finally, if they blow the door with C4, your gun isn't going to help you. The concussion alone in an enclosed space such as a flight deck will render you unconscious and most likely shatter every piece of glass up there.

There was no need to call Dieterly an idiot. Though he was wrong to insult you, with some of the arguments you get yourself into here, and the way you conduct yourself by refusing to see other viewpoints, don't be surprised to hear such things. You make a lot of insults here yourself, which is troubling considering your lack of experience in the industry and your lack of seniority here.
You may benefit from doing more listening than talking until you gain some experience in the industry.

Take that advice or insult me, it's your call, but I'm just trying to help you out.