Q on handguns in the cockpit

[ILLINI]

I was looking for some information on what the effect of a bullet being fired through the fuselage at altitude would be.

Wondering what would happen if one, two, three, or more bullets went through the fuselage. What about a window being blown out???

Would FFDO's be using special ammunition that would reduce the chances of a bullet actually going through the airframe? Or would they use the same jacketed hollow point lead bullets used by law enforcement agencies around the US?

Thanks!

 

[SpeedBug]

Just how many holes already exist in the hull or pressure vessel now, all those cables, lines and wires that run through?

One, two or even three quarter sized holes in the fuselage would not be a problem for any modern pressurization system to compensate for while the plane is descending. Loss of a window would be dramatic, cause a lot of folks to mess on themselves but you’d still be fine as long as the aircrew acted accordingly, which 99.9% would.

The idea of “frangible ammo” is just an internet myth, FAM’s use the same round that the Secret Service and the USMS carries in their issue .357 SIG’s. 124grain Gold Dot hollow points. My guess is the FFDO’s will use something similar in the .40 caliber range, at least that’s the scuttlebutt around the ranges and in our office.

When we went thru the airborne escort portion of our course the emphasis was placed on simply not shooting towards the flightdeck or at blind spots such as lav or galley areas etc…

We were told if you must take a shot, aim center mass, double tap and take the suspect down.

 

[flyn96]

You ever seen the outflow valves on a Boeing or Airbus? They are quite large. Also a 747 a few years ago had its cargo door blown off due to a faulty latch and was able to land safely.

 

[jarhead]

Wasn't it a 737 some years back, that the whole wrap around the front part of the cabin, was ripped out at altitude on an inter- island flight in Hawaii? one FA was killed as she fell to the pacific, but the pilots brought that damaged plane into Maui, with no further loss of life.

 

[SpeedBug]

It was a UAL 747 out of Hawaii, IIRC it killed a couple of people, they were never found either.

 

[WrightAvia]

If you were ejected from a 747, would you undo your seat belt and try to get together a record setting 8 way, or would you waste the last skydive of your life riding the seat in screaming?

From what I remember, one pax made it into an engine.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X27705&key=1

 

[WrightAvia]

here's the transcripts...according to the news photograph of the plane, the hole in the side of the plane was a big as an 8 plex apartment.

http://www.crm-devel.org/resources/misc/ual811.htm

 

[PropTrash]

Speedbug:

I've been shooting for a while, but as a pro you know allot more about handgun ammo than I do. Are we sure that a handgun round would penetrate a flight deck windshield? They are pretty darn sturdy... thicker than "ballistic" type plexiglass I have seen on armored vehicles. I really don't know, maybe you do.

As for the 737 and 747 in Hawaii... One was a Aloha 737 who's roof ripped off in flight, taking a FA with it. The other was a United 747 that lost a large chunk of it's right side due to a stress crack... around a cargo door I believe.

 

[WrightAvia]

The other was a United 747 that lost a large chunk of it's right side due to a stress crack... around a cargo door I believe.

I posted a link to the NTSB report and a link to the cockpit voice recording of United Flight 811 in the two posts prior to yours. In case you missed it, here is an excerpt.


The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

THE SUDDEN OPENING OF THE IMPROPERLY LATCHED FORWARD LOBE CARGO DOOR IN FLIGHT AND THE SUBSEQUENT EXPLOSIVE DECOMPRESSION. CONTRIBUTING TO THE ACCIDENT WAS A DEFICIENCY IN THE DESIGN OF THE CARGO DOOR LOCKING MECHANISMS, WHICH MADE THEM SUSCEPTIBLE TO INSERVICE DAMAGE, AND WHICH ALOWED THE DOOR TO BE UNATCHED, YET TO SHOW A PROPERLY LATCHED AND LOCKED POSITION. ALSO CONTRIBUTING TO THE ACCIDENT WAS THE LACK OF PROPER MAINTENANCE AND INSPECTION OF THE CARGO DOOR BY UNITED AIRLINES, AND A LACK OF TIMELY CORRECTIVE ACTIONS BY BOEING AND THE FAA FOLLOWING A PREVIOUS DOOR OPENING INCIDENT.

 

[SpeedBug]

One of the basic tests that all rounds issued to Federal LEO’s must pass is the ability to punch through auto glass and still maintain bullet integrity (weight) and velocity.

The .40 and the 9MM +P has shown the ability to penetrate cinder blocks and thin plates of steel at close ranges and +P+ can even penetrate some levels of vests as well.

I would imagine that some ammo could have the ability to at close range, penetrate aircraft windscreen glass but that most rounds would only at best spider web it.

You might find this interesting.

http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

 

[WrightAvia]

The following information was forwarded to me from someone on the API list. Note that this is only the protocol (methodology) of the FBI test, not the results they achieved with various types of ammunition. I have no way to access and post that information. Sorry.

There is no indication of performance of .40 S&W ammunition in that link, just a list of of tests performed.

 

[SpeedBug]

The actual results the firearms training unit collects for some reason is classified (why I don’t know…) but I thought you might find the tests interesting is all.

 

[WrightAvia]

Yea, it would be interesting. I have a USP .40 and will be possibly converting a title II firearm to .40 S&W.

I wouldn't want to get hit with 9MM or any other firearm round for that matter, but I think the .40 S&W is about as good as you're gonna get in a general autoloader cartridge. Maybe almost as good as .38+P ACP.

 

[PropTrash]

Thanks for the link, speedbug. I did find it pretty interesting. I have a feeling that most handgun ammo would probably just make the cockpit glass really hard to see through... of course the pressure differential between the inside and outside may play a role in whether it breaks or not (the greater the differential, the greater the chance that a little bit of damage becomes allot). I would also imagine that a full jacketed round would stand a better chance of penetrating as well, as it wouldn't waste it's energy spreading out like a hollow tip round would. Oh well, just theorizing here...