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Public release on Dover C-5 crash

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According to the article there was an instructor and more than one FE. What did these people do during this flight? How about using them to read the checklists and going to the manuals finding the right pages, and being an extra set of eyes. The released article just screams poor CRM (or is that a concept the airforce doesn't know about yet?).
 
metrodriver said:
(or is that a concept the airforce doesn't know about yet?).

I really don't think it's fair to say that since the rest of the world has problems with CRM at times.
 
C-5 Crash At Dover AFB in April Blamed On Crew Error

World News & Analysis

C-5 Crash At Dover AFB in April Blamed On Crew Error
Aviation Week & Space Technology
06/19/2006, page 28

David Hughes
Washington


An experienced crew gets complacent returning to home base on a clear day

Printed headline: C-5 Crew Error Crash

A U.S. Air Force accident investigation board has concluded that the cause of a C-5B crash near Dover AFB, Del., on Apr. 3 was a series of primarily pilot errors that resulted in the aircraft stalling into the ground.

All 14 crewmembers from the USAF Reserve's 512th Military Airlift Wing and three passengers survived. Some were seriously injured. The aircraft crashed and broke into two large pieces about 2,000 ft. short of the runway during an emergency return to Dover.

The aircraft weighed 742,000 lb. and was bound for Ramstein Air Base, Germany, with 105,000 lb. of cargo when the crew decided to shut down the No. 2 engine after a "thrust reverser not locked" light illuminated. If a thrust reverser deploys in flight with the engine running, it would be a serious hazard.

The pilots then canceled the instrument flight rules clearance, for reasons not in the report, and requested a visual approach to Dover's runway 32--3,300 ft. longer than the instrument landing system-equipped runway 19.

The pilot was in the right seat and was certified as a C-5 flight instructor. He was chosen by the pilots to fly the emergency return so he could log the sortie. During the descent, he pulled throttles for the remaining operating engines 1, 3 and 4 to idle. When later advancing the throttles, he mistakenly advanced throttle 1, 2 and 4, leaving No. 3 at idle (29% fan speed) for the duration of the flight. In effect, the pilot used above-idle thrust on just two of the three functioning engines until ground impact. This error and corresponding engine-instrument indications were missed by the pilot in the left seat (a C-5 flight examiner), the pilot in the jump seat and the flight engineers who monitor engine performance.

The accident board found the cause of the mishap was the pilots' and flight engineers' failure to use the fully operational No. 3 engine, the instructor and primary flight engineer's failure to brief the approach and the pilot's failure to use 62.5% or 40% flaps for the approach. Col. Raymond Torres, president of the accident investigation board, says the Air Force directs pilots of heavy-weight aircraft (above 632,000 lb.) to use 40% flaps on an engine-out approach--not 100% flaps.

While flying with the landing gear extended at 500 ft. above ground about 4 mi. from the runway, the pilots selected 100% flaps--an action not normally taken on a three-engine approach until landing is assured. Normal glidepath at this point should have put the aircraft at about 1,200 ft. The investigation board said the 100% flap selection was premature, based on the heavy weight, speed, altitude and position of the aircraft relative to the runway. The crew's call for a visual approach and descent below the normal glidepath was another cause of the accident, the board says.

After selection of 100% flaps, the aircraft continued to descend. The target approach speed for 100% flaps was 146 kt., with minimum control airspeed at 133 kt. But the pilot was unable to maintain the target airspeed, and the aircraft slowed to 127 kt. Descending through 150 ft., the crew selected 40% flaps (apparently to reduce drag), causing an immediate stall due to loss of lift. The 127-kt. speed was 40 kt. below the target speed for 40% flaps. The accident board noted that even without this change in flap setting, the plane would have stalled and crashed short of the runway.

The aircraft impacted the ground in a "very nose-high attitude" of 18-21-deg. angle of attack. The tail struck the ground first, even before the main landing gear, with a 10g force as the empennage broke off. Then, the nose slammed down with 30g of force, breaking the fuselage into two major sections.

There was no post-crash fire or explosion, despite the aircraft carrying 250,000 lb. of jet fuel. The C-5 had nitrogen in the airspace above the JP8 fuel in the tanks. The main and auxiliary tanks ultimately ruptured, and more than 1,000 gallons of fuel spilled on the ground. There was no spark to set it on fire.

The board says the crew was complacent and failed to realize the potential risk of a heavy-weight, full-flap approach and landing. Torres says simulator sessions showed if any of three errors (flying below the normal glidepath, using less than the available thrust on the three running engines or selecting the 100% flap setting) had been corrected, the aircraft could have landed safely.

For example, simulator sessions showed that using the No. 3 engine as late as 300 ft. above the ground resulted in a safe landing. The accident aircraft stalled at 150 ft. Another scenario showed that using a 62.5% or 40% flap setting and the related approach speed without using the No. 3 engine above idle led to a safe landing. And a third scenario showed that flying an ILS or tactical air navigation approach to the runways at the base at the right altitudes would have worked even without the No. 3 engine above idle and flaps at 100%.

Torres says that crew performance in this accident did not meet the Air Force's professional standards, but he does not know if any disciplinary action will be taken against crewmembers.

The C-5 in the accident was recently fitted with the avionics modernization program system, which worked properly during the flight.

Wally Magathan, a former C-5 aircraft commander and flight instructor, contributed to this article.
 
^Wow...doesn't look too good for those guys.


Thank GOD everyone is alive.
 
TrafficInSight said:
I really don't think it's fair to say that since the rest of the world has problems with CRM at times.
True. But a few (notice I said a few) mil type guys walk around with their chests stuck out, bragging about how great the military training is compared to the civilian training and that only the top gun-best of the best-super pilots can cut it in the military. And how good they are compared to civ pilots, how with a mil pilot you getting a "known quantity" blah blah blah.

I feel bad for these guys, shiite happens to everybody, and sometimes it happens to you. Everybofy screws up, myself included.

But if any of these guys go to interview for a major, are they a mil super pilot top gun "known quantity"?

They just proved that mil training and flying is subject to the same foibles and problems that civ training is.

Sorry if nobody agrees. I doubt this is the only mil accident ever to happen from a lack of CRM.
 
Just an observation from a former AF guy. There are lots of references to "PNF" and the Air Force being "behind the times" on this thread. FWIW, most airlines have replaced "PNF" with "PM" (PILOT MONITORING) to further emphasize the engaged role of the pilot not directly at the controls. The title itself emphasizes the importance of the "non-flying" pilot in monitoring for satisfactory performance.

I think the report speaks for itself. I took the following from it:

1. Never get SLOW in an engine-out/thrust deficient situation.

2. Properly identify which engine is malfunctioning.

3. Comply with Standard Operating Procedures in an emergency (i.e., use recommended flap settings for the situation).

Most emergency procedures (especially those in military aircraft) have UNFORTUNATELY been written in blood. DO NOT DISREGARD the Dash-1 Notes, Warnings, and Cautions ... someone has most likely paid for them with his life.

This is truly an occupation characterized by hours and hours of boredom with rare seconds punctuated by terror. I take it as another reminder to occasionally hit the books and brush up on the EP's between annual re-qual events. You just never know when your life/career may depend on your successful handling of an emergency.

BBB
 
Big Beer Belly said:
Just an observation from a former AF guy. There are lots of references to "PNF" and the Air Force being "behind the times" on this thread. FWIW, most airlines have replaced "PNF" with "PM" (PILOT MONITORING) to further emphasize the engaged role of the pilot not directly at the controls. The title itself emphasizes the importance of the "non-flying" pilot in monitoring for satisfactory performance.

I think the report speaks for itself. I took the following from it:

1. Never get SLOW in an engine-out/thrust deficient situation.

2. Properly identify which engine is malfunctioning.

3. Comply with Standard Operating Procedures in an emergency (i.e., use recommended flap settings for the situation).

Most emergency procedures (especially those in military aircraft) have UNFORTUNATELY been written in blood. DO NOT DISREGARD the Dash-1 Notes, Warnings, and Cautions ... someone has most likely paid for them with his life.

This is truly an occupation characterized by hours and hours of boredom with rare seconds punctuated by terror. I take it as another reminder to occasionally hit the books and brush up on the EP's between annual re-qual events. You just never know when your life/career may depend on your successful handling of an emergency.

BBB

4. Use some CRM
 
Rogue5 said:
World News & Analysis

The pilot was in the right seat and was certified as a C-5 flight instructor. He was chosen by the pilots to fly the emergency return so he could log the sortie.


Im out of the loop here, but what does that statement refer to, "so he could log the sortie"? During an actual emergency, were they concerned about how/and who was going to log this in a certain manner? Maybe im just missing something here. Is the PF not the "chosen one" when flying in this situation?
 
This accident goes way beyond what the AF has released in press releases. There is so much more with many lessons to be learned. Unfortunately the public won't have access to the majority of it. It is not a simple case of a throttle swap and bad CRM. There are many more facets that lead up to the accident. I have a feeling it will be used for many years as a teaching tool in the military.

The crew, since it was a Rerserve crew, probably had an extensive civillian background in addition to their military experience.
 
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dojetdriver said:
But if any of these guys go to interview for a major, are they a mil super pilot top gun "known quantity"?

Dude - they crashed an aircraft. I'd say their "quantity" is about zero. Just because someone gets the chance to get high quality training, doesn't mean they'll end up high quality. Obviously they have a better shot with better training, but there's always the 1%.
 
AdlerDriver said:
Dude - they crashed an aircraft. I'd say their "quantity" is about zero. Just because someone gets the chance to get high quality training, doesn't mean they'll end up high quality. Obviously they have a better shot with better training, but there's always the 1%.

Exactly the point I was making. Just because they were mil doesn't mean they are exempt from fcuking up. Contrary to what alot of guys think about mil pilots being so surperior.
 
CHQ is right. As a flight safety officer I've seen the report and there's much more in it than the general public can see. Also, on my plane, the KC-10, the FE always reads ALL checklists, normal and emergency.
 
dojetdriver said:
1. I guess you didn't read post #36 very well
Actually I did read post #36. One of the things you said was:
dojetdriver said:
Everybofy screws up, myself included.
I assume that when you refer to 'Everybofy' you are referring to both civilian and military types. I couldn't agree more as I firmly believe that accident potential (and the cause for accidents for that matter) is mutually exclusive of one's training background.
dojetdriver said:
2. Is there a reason you have a chip on your shoulder when somebody points out a fact and in this case happens to be about a military accident?
Technically I don't have a 'chip on my shoulder.' According to dictionary.com:
dictionary.com said:
chip on (one's) shoulder A habitually hostile or combative attitude.
I have read and re-read all (472 at last count) of your previous posts and I would think that you fit the dictionary.com definition perfectly. You have the habit of coming across in a combative manner on many subjects not exclusive to military pilots quite frequently. I don't think that you can say the same for me. My point was merely that you might have issues with military pilots. Let's reference a portion of post #36 again, shall we?

dojetdriver said:
True. But a few (notice I said a few) mil type guys walk around with their chests stuck out, bragging about how great the military training is compared to the civilian training and that only the top gun-best of the best-super pilots can cut it in the military. And how good they are compared to civ pilots, how with a mil pilot you getting a "known quantity" blah blah blah.

I would say that that statement could be construed as both combative and hostile toward pilots with a military background. I would also argue that many of your 400-odd posts have 'habitual' tones that are both hostile and combative. Maybe I should have been more general and just stated that you seem to have a chip on your shoulder, regardless of your post's military or civilian commentary.

Good day,
Beertini
 
Beertini said:
Actually I did read post #36. One of the things you said was:

I assume that when you refer to 'Everybofy' you are referring to both civilian and military types. I couldn't agree more as I firmly believe that accident potential (and the cause for accidents for that matter) is mutually exclusive of one's training background.

Technically I don't have a 'chip on my shoulder.' According to dictionary.com:

I have read and re-read all (472 at last count) of your previous posts and I would think that you fit the dictionary.com definition perfectly. You have the habit of coming across in a combative manner on many subjects not exclusive to military pilots quite frequently. I don't think that you can say the same for me. My point was merely that you might have issues with military pilots. Let's reference a portion of post #36 again, shall we?



I would say that that statement could be construed as both combative and hostile toward pilots with a military background. I would also argue that many of your 400-odd posts have 'habitual' tones that are both hostile and combative. Maybe I should have been more general and just stated that you seem to have a chip on your shoulder, regardless of your post's military or civilian commentary.

Good day,
Beertini

Wow, did you really read all 472 of my posts? Seriously, it that what you did before making this response? I didn't say all, I said some. Look at how many posts are written by some of the mil guys towards civ guys that could be taken as hostile, combatitive, or just plain condescending.
 
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metrodriver said:
According to the article there was an instructor and more than one FE. What did these people do during this flight? How about using them to read the checklists and going to the manuals finding the right pages, and being an extra set of eyes. The released article just screams poor CRM (or is that a concept the airforce doesn't know about yet?).

I've been trained on CRM twice a year every year since I've been in the AF. Lots of us are CRM instructors. I'd bet money that the the military has done more to flesh out and improve CRM than any other entity out there. Your sarcastic observation is unwarranted and just shows your ignorance about the military. Do you think it'd be fair to point out any other airplane accident and follow it up with "or is that a concept the <insert anything here> doesn't know about yet?"
 
Beertini said:
Actually I did read post #36. One of the things you said was:

I assume that when you refer to 'Everybofy' you are referring to both civilian and military types. I couldn't agree more as I firmly believe that accident potential (and the cause for accidents for that matter) is mutually exclusive of one's training background.

Technically I don't have a 'chip on my shoulder.' According to dictionary.com:

I have read and re-read all (472 at last count) of your previous posts and I would think that you fit the dictionary.com definition perfectly. You have the habit of coming across in a combative manner on many subjects not exclusive to military pilots quite frequently. I don't think that you can say the same for me. My point was merely that you might have issues with military pilots. Let's reference a portion of post #36 again, shall we?



I would say that that statement could be construed as both combative and hostile toward pilots with a military background. I would also argue that many of your 400-odd posts have 'habitual' tones that are both hostile and combative. Maybe I should have been more general and just stated that you seem to have a chip on your shoulder, regardless of your post's military or civilian commentary.

Good day,
Beertini

You have way too much time on your hands my friend. And I thought I had a message board addiction. Jesus.
 
kevdog said:
You have way too much time on your hands my friend. And I thought I had a message board addiction. Jesus.
C'mon kev--who has the 800+ posts? :) Besides, what else am I supposed to do on a layover in Mumbai?

(Also, I firmly believe in doing your homework before making a personal accusation. I know that flies in the face of the FI "way," but have you ever been to Mumbai?:eek:).

Beertini
 
Beertini said:
C'mon kev--who has the 800+ posts? :) Besides, what else am I supposed to do on a layover in Mumbai?

(Also, I firmly believe in doing your homework before making a personal accusation. I know that flies in the face of the FI "way," but have you ever been to Mumbai?:eek:).

Beertini

I hope you have high-speed over there, lol.
 
dojetdriver said:
True. But a few (notice I said a few) mil type guys walk around with their chests stuck out, bragging about how great the military training is compared to the civilian training and that only the top gun-best of the best-super pilots can cut it in the military. And how good they are compared to civ pilots, how with a mil pilot you getting a "known quantity" blah blah blah.

I have no idea what kind of training you received, how long it took, or what else you had going on while learning to fly. For all I know, you had a college buddy give you flying lessones in exchange for low cost dime bags and acceptance into the Friday night Dungeons and Dragons club!!! Though Im pretty sure you busted your butt getting to where you are today, and mad respect for the civies who truly earn their way!!!

But guess what, you know exactly what my military training consisted of! One thing is for sure, I never had to worry about how to pay for my next flying lesson, never once had to pimp myself out to pass a checkride (thought about it), and realized by the age of 22 that I had achieved my primary career objective...to fly planes. So yes, I am a known quantity!!!
 
dojetdriver said:
True. But a few (notice I said a few) mil type guys walk around with their chests stuck out, bragging about how great the military training is compared to the civilian training and that only the top gun-best of the best-super pilots can cut it in the military. And how good they are compared to civ pilots, how with a mil pilot you getting a "known quantity" blah blah blah.

Were those mil guys you are referring to naval aviators by any chance? The Navy guys tend to have a bit higher PSI on the ego, and I have on a few occasions had to listen while a naval aviator regaled me with tales of how his training was so superior to anything in the civilian world. The USAF pilots I have worked with tend to be much more down to earth.
 
HarryShadow said:
I have no idea what kind of training you received, how long it took, or what else you had going on while learning to fly. For all I know, you had a college buddy give you flying lessones in exchange for low cost dime bags and acceptance into the Friday night Dungeons and Dragons club!!! Though Im pretty sure you busted your butt getting to where you are today, and mad respect for the civies who truly earn their way!!!

But guess what, you know exactly what my military training consisted of! One thing is for sure, I never had to worry about how to pay for my next flying lesson, never once had to pimp myself out to pass a checkride (thought about it), and realized by the age of 22 that I had achieved my primary career objective...to fly planes. So yes, I am a known quantity!!!

Dude, you quoted my post so I ASSume you read it. I said a few, then emphasized by repeating it again in parenthes. By doing so I meant just that, a few.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The USAF pilots I have worked with tend to be much more down to earth.

That's because they don't land on a pitching carrier deck or fly at two hundred feet off the water with an engine shutdown!
 
dojetdriver said:
Good, I'm glad that somebody was able to read/comprehend the original post.

Read and comprehended...but Im still a known quantity, and now know this...this thread is getting old!!!
 
Air Force Times Story of Crash

I know that several stories have been posted, but this one has some CVR statements.....gives some indication as to what was going on between the crewmembers.

Cockpit crew blamed for C-5 crash

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]By Randall Chase[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Associated Press[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]DOVER, Del. — Human error is to blame for the crash of a giant C-5 cargo plane at Dover Air Force Base, military officials said Tuesday.
Investigators said the cockpit crew made three critical errors after declaring an emergency shortly after takeoff on April 3.



http://ads5.mconetwork.com/RealMedi...airforce.gif/34336234313431653434613465633330


Investigators found “clear and convincing evidence” that the crew tried to throttle-up an engine they had shut down while not utilizing a fully operational engine, used flap settings that resulted in too much drag, and selected the wrong type of approach for the conditions they faced.

After receiving a false indication that the thrust reverser on one of the engines was unlocked, the crew of the C-5B Galaxy shut down the engine and tried to return to base. The aircraft stalled about a mile from the runway, clipped a telephone pole and plowed into an open field, breaking into three sections.

All 17 people aboard the aircraft, which was laden with jet fuel and carrying supplies for U.S. troops in the Middle East, survived.

The two pilots at the controls of the plane were Capt. Brian LaFreda and Lt. Col. Harland Nelson. A third pilot, Lt. Col. Robert Moorman, was sitting in a jump seat behind them. The veteran cockpit crew also included two flight engineers. The three pilots collectively had more than 10,000 hours flying time in the C-5, as did the two flight engineers in the cockpit.

The plane belonged to the 436th Airlift Wing, the active duty unit at Dover, but was being flown by a crew from the 512th Airlift Wing, a reserve unit.
“This crew developed a lack of situational awareness and complacency, “ said Col. Ray Torres, head of the accident investigation board.

Torres said the fate of the cockpit crew, none of whom has flown since the crash, is outside the scope of the investigation board. The board’s report will be referred to their commanders, he said.

“We are premature on making any statement on the crew, whether the crew will ever fly again or not,” said Col. David Wuest, vice commander of the 512th Airlift Wing.

Wuest said Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. T. Michael Mosely had signed off on the accident report, but that it remains to be determined who will make the decisions regarding the fate of the crew members.

“It will be in the chain of command,” Wuest said.

Dover Air Force Base spokeswoman Lt. Col. Cheryl Law said all of the crew members had been offered the opportunity to speak to the media, and that all declined.

Delaware’s congressional delegation, Democratic Sens. Joseph Biden and Thomas Carper and Republican Rep. Mike Castle, released a statement expressing confidence in the safety of the C-5 fleet. They noted, as did Torres, that there was no evidence that new cockpit avionics equipment with which the aging fleet is being outfitted played any role in the crash.
“We found no linkage between the update to the cockpit and the causes of this accident,” Torres said.

The crash occurred after a cockpit signal indicated, falsely, that a thrust reverser on the No. 2 engine was unlocked. Following procedure, the crew shut down the engine and turned back for the base, idling the other three engines to “reconfigure” the aircraft and prepare for descent.
When re-throttling the engines, however, LaFreda mistakenly throttled up No. 2, which was shut down, instead of No. 3, which remained fully operational, yet idling. The other two pilots and the two flight engineers failed to notice the mistake.

Compounding the error, the crew used a full flap approach. Using flap settings of 62.5 percent or 40 percent, instead of 100 percent, would have lessened drag on the 730,000-pound aircraft, which was about 100,000 pounds heavier than the normal landing weight. Investigators said a 40 percent flap setting would have boosted airspeed by about 20 knots on final approach to 166 knots.

According to the cockpit voice recorder, Nelson told LaFreda about 45 seconds before the crash that the aircraft was a “little slow,” and that a “lot of power” was needed. After confirming that the airspeed was too slow, LaFreda called for “flaps 40,” but followed up immediately with “Aw, disregard, don’t do that yet.”

Meanwhile, the two flight engineers were talking to themselves about why a 40 percent flap setting was not being flown.

“Guys, I’m concerned,” LaFreda said as an alarm signaled an altitude of 300 feet.

At about one mile out, with the plane traveling at about 127 knots and an altitude of about 150 feet, the crew finally reduced flaps to 40 percent, which resulted in the aircraft stalling.

In addition to not using the No. 3 engine and setting the flaps incorrectly, the crew also mistakenly tried a visual approach to the runway, bringing the C-5 well below the normal glide path for an instrument approach or the normal visual flight rules pattern altitude.

Finally, investigators found “substantial evidence” that LaFreda did not provide a complete approach briefing to the crew, which may have resulted in crew members raising questions that might have averted the crash.
Torres said numerous simulator tests indicated that, with the same flap settings and approach used by the crew, the crash could have been avoided had the No. 3 engine been throttled up as late as 300 feet above the ground. Similarly, even with only two engines working, a reduced flap setting would have resulted in a safe landing. A safe landing also could have been achieved, with only two engines and at full flaps, had the crew used an instrument landing approach to a different runaway or even a “non-precision” instrument approach to the runway they selected, investigators determined.

“Clearly there was complacency, and clearly a lack of situational awareness,” Torres said. “Our crews are highly trained. This is not normal behavior for our crew members.”
[/FONT]
 
It may have been mentioned in the thread already (I don't think I saw it), but there's a video floating around that has the accident FDR and CVR data produced by the MAAF, similar to what the NTSB puts out for accident animations.

Interesting to say the least. Monday morning it, it's painful to see the thrust lever swap...
 

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