PTs, PCs, LOFTS ...questions

Diesel8

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What does the average airline do after initial to their guys...I have seen the following for FOs: one year after initial, a LOFT, then a PC (pro. check) the next year and alternating. For Captains, A PC, six months later a LOFT, six months later a PC, etc. The reason I am asking is that I talked to a guy who said his airline (Mesaba) only does PCs, and no LOFTs after the one after initial. I thought this was strange.
 

TurboS7

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As a FO you will have your standard PC then 3 bounces unless the airline is approved for bounces in the sim. Next you will have to complete 25 hours of OE. In one year you will be required to have recurrent ground and flight training. The flight training could be just that or it could be a LOFT(Line Oriented Flight Training). With a LOFT flight you show up and do everything just like it was a flight on the line. With our LOFT you will have an MEL item, contaminated runway, freezing rain, and shoot they will throw in thunderstorms with windshear to boot. You will fly a regular route and with us "all hell will break loose" you divert and get it on the ground. Then it is the next guys turn with a complete diffrent scenario. A LOFT isn't suppose to be so exciting but I think we have bored sim instructors. The bottom line is that technically they can't fail you it is a learning experience. But believe me if you show any real weakness the period will be followed by some pretty intense training or at least a bunch of line checks.
For a captain he gets the LOFT in 6 months and a PC every 12months and a line check every 12 months. In additon you get recurrent flight training and an intense oral on the systems of the aircraft. In our company if they want to get rid of you they will try and bust you in the sim, so every sim period you put it on the line, doesn't seem right but that is just the way it is. Welcome to 121.
 

Diesel8

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Thanks for the info. I am not unfamiliar with 121 flying, I am at my third carrier...I just didn't get it, and thought I was missing something when I spoke with that Mesaba guy. Maybe some other Mesaba guys can shed some light. He said they don't do ANY LOFTs after initial. It sounded strange...still does. With every company I have worked at you get LOFTs and PC alternating...just like you said in your post. He told me it was great that all they did was PCs, so that they were nice and sharp on checkrides. I said that doing just PCs was silly...that doing stuff that was OUTSIDE the QRH, in a LOFT environment was both educational and made things less routine. A part 121 carrier doing no LOFTs seems nuts to me.
 

TurboS7

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You can do PC's every six months usually that is the case in smaller carriers where they feel that due to experience level the pilot's need more exposure to PC's. In the end who really cares, just so they sign the darn piece of paper so you can keep flying. I have found that people that do hot stuff in the sim on a pic arn't worth a hoot out on the line. Especially when it comes to saving the company money moving metal and getting the job done.
 

Boz

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Diesel8

What was posted is correct. Just wanted to add that under PART 121 we have many airlines operating but each airline willl have its own approved training program athorized by the FAA. At United Airlines we recently changed to a slightly different program where pilots are give some home study material befor they come in to the company training center. It consists of watching videos on turbulence avoidence, windshear, icing and winter ops, etc... Then you have a test on the current systems of your aircraft. Finally, you bring this to your 9 month PC and spend 4 days going over questions and answers as to how you will handle several different scenarios. You also fly the sims about 2 hrs as PNF and PF. Then 9 months down the road you take a PT, which covers more emergency evac situations, and make sure you are still qualified to operate fire extingushiers, and saftey related items. Both are on a 9 month schedule. They are quite non threatening events, just so long as you do your homework and show up prepared. Hope this gives you some insight as to the varying degrees of training at airlines. I have friends at other majors and regionals that have a good degree of sifference in how they satisfy the FAA recurency requirments.
 

bobbysamd

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LOFTs, Orals, etc.

Very interesting thread.

I add this comment simply to point out to new folks starting their training and/or starting college that they should also find a course or training in how to study. With all these initial checks and recurrencies and their orals, there is one thing that is for sure; you have to know or learn how to learn.

Good luck with your IOEs and PCs. I'd like to be joining you, but I don't envy you, either.
 
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Saabslime

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Yes it's true. At Mesaba, we only do PC's every year for FO's and every six months for CA's. The only LOFT you get is after the type ride or initial check for new hires. And no Turbo, it has nothing to do with the experience level. We require 3000 hours to upgrade to the Saab and 5000 for the Avro. Most have more time than that. This is just the way our training dept does things. Not sure of their reasoning but Mesaba has never had an accident yet. Kind of like the Quantas of the regionals. I have heard as recently as a week ago that we are going to be changing to the PC.....LOFT.......PC format though. ;)
 

TurboS7

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I wouldn't consider Mesaba a "small carrier", LOFT etc. takes complete approval by the FAA and some POI's just don't want to go through all the hassle. I personally prefer the "flight training" vs. the LOFT. Otherwise when it comes to a PC you are doing a V1 cut for the first time in a year. But in a LOFT you will learn a lot more for application to your real job, flying the line. There are two types of flying simulator flying and line flying, never the twaine shall meet, I believe the LOFT is an effort the bring the two together. I see the sim as a procedureal trainer and an oppurtunity to "get it together" without the distraction of ATC, the customer, or an F/A. The UAL training program sounds nice one more plus for being with a major.
 

XJAVRO

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I can tell you the AVRO program at Mesaba was approved last June to change the PC only to something along the lines you guys are talking about. The new program if it ever starts would be a PC, 6 months later sim training(like a PC), then PC, etc..
Were still doing all PC I'm not sure when it will change
 
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