PSA Update...

[Av8ter]

Hi guys and gals,

Just got the word from Sid Davis, the HR rep at PSA, that they will not be doing any interviews until at least spring of 03. They only have one class scheduled and that is 10/21, with the other being cancelled. The reason is late delivery of RJ's from mainline, and slow movement elsewhere.

The October class was filled with poolies. No word on how the supposed Emery exodus has affected them.

So it's wait time again. tick tock, tick tock...

Av8ter

 

[The Penguin]

When did you talk to Sid?

 

[FR8mastr]

I don't know where people are getting all these Rj's at PSA lets look at some facts: 1 Nobody will see an RJ, untill and if, U comes out of bankruptcy. 2. best case scenerio RJ's do show up at PSA at least 50% of the seats will be ML pilots. at the same time the 328's will likely be leaving. This will ultimetly leave a larger number of PSA pilots than aircraft. Keep in mind this is best case scenerio. Dreams of hundreds of RJ's at any single carrier (other than MDA) are just fantasy. I remember reading on this board a month ago, a PSA pilot was talking about proving runs by this date. PSA's union or maagement or both are spreading some tall tales. What I have said is not hearsay, it's in the J4J extorsion that the WO's have conceeded too.

Keep in mind if MDA cant get their certificate dilema under control there is a chance U will just take the PSA cert. and make it MDA with the appropriate devestation to the PSA pilot group. there are also about 3 theories in between these two examples.

bottom line dont plan on anything at PSA or the other two now inept WO's

 

[d328pilot]

I did state that the rumor was that PSA would be doing proving runs by the end of the year....but as the word "rumor" implies, sometimes they are not true. So here are the facts.

1. The bankrupcy court approved financing for U restructuring, a major part of that being the purchase of rj's.

2. PSA public statement "PSA will lease old NCR training facility at Dayton Airport Inn(hotel). Second floor will be renovated for new training facility". PSA aquired former US DAY Res. facility for additional training/office space.

3. PSA ALPA Negotiating Committee Chair appionted to Mid-Atlantic Negotiation Committee by ALPA President Duane Woerth. Woerth comments "Capt. Moon will represent the Express pilots at Mid-Atlantic.

4. PSA will upgrade 24 FO's to Capt. by the end of Dec. 02. With projected new hire FO's to exceed 35 by years end. PSA operates 28 D328's with 2 spares. 170(+-) Capts. currently on the seniority list not including final upgrade numbers and 130(+-) fo's not including new hires. PSA will be way over staffed by the new year at 340 pilots (+-)?

5. PSA MEC and PSA Merger Committee Chair meet with Mid-Atlantic Negotiating Committee to discuss seniority integration. This took place last week.

Things will happen. When, i dont know. I can guess but I dont want to. Hundreds of rj's at one carrier will not happen. I agree....However, 60 or 80 at the carriers might. Mid Atlantic will fly nothing but 70 sear rj's. This might explain why things are taking so long with their certificate. And I am sure that it takes a very long time to get everything approved by the FAA to start a new airline. They are not fast at anything else so why should this be any different. J4J sucked but it is something we all will have to accept. If you can't, then you need to find another job.

 

[FR8mastr]

Dont underistimate the power of the whipsaw. ever since your MEC reniged on the agreement with the other two WO (remember unified now) management has been threatening PDT and ALG with all sorts of things concerinig PSA. This is how whipsawing works. "if you dont cooperate, we will give it all to them". I hope you are correct and we all end up in a shiny new airplanes, but your figures certainly dont match what the above posters said about future classes. Although at the wages your mec negotiated they certainly have set a new standard.

the Ml loa states that the first 70 rj's can go anywhere as in loa 79.
the next 70 medium rj's can go to any participating company

additional medium rj's will be placed at mda except that U may place medium rj's at other participating carriers but only if the aggregate number of such additional medium rj's in the active fleets of express other than MDA shall not exeed 150% of the number of medium rj's at MDA.

In English MDA holds the cards, our only hope is in the small rj's and that number is limited to 150 total.
and MDA can operate those also.

 

[FR8mastr]

By the way, just because I will not bow down to extorsion and run like a coward for cover everytime sombody throws a threat my way, and I am ashamed not proud of becoming the new whore airline does not mean I need to look for another job. I came to the WO back when there was integrity here. If I wanted to work for Mesa or Freedom air I would apply. Maybe since you have no problem with that kind of operation maybe you should be the one to leave!

 

[FR8mastr]

One more thing I forgot to mention in my rants. ALG also has been fed the RJ's anytime now crap from the training dept. It came to a head just prior to the vote, now? it all quite on the RJ front.

I dont know the specifics but a PDT capt. told me of their RJ implementation plan also.

 

[d328pilot]

You must have a different LOA than I do....mine says:

90 Seat rjs go to mainline
70 seat rjs go to mid atlantic
50 and less go to participating J4J carriers


Seigel said from day one that if you didnt play along that you would not be included in the new U. Why should he bargin with us...We are not that important. We have no barganing power.. The biggest WO has what, 500 pilots. Why do you think that there are 3 seperate WOs. Because it keeps us small enough to have no power. You are right, some fights are worth fighting, but now, with the airline industry and the economy the way it is, management holds all the cards..This is a fight that could not be won. Sometimes it is better to retreat that to fight knowing you will lose. I would not call it caving in, I call it survival. And just because someone disagrees, does not mean that they do not have integrity. I love when I am flying with people that try to fight the company on everything. The result is always the same, you get screwed in the end....this is no different.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

D328Pilot is Right

D328Pilot is correct.

Its not "quite" like LOA79 since any additional RJs must be flown by participating carriers.

The next 70 RJs may go to any participating carrier. Following those 70, additional medium RJs may be added at participating carriers at a ratio with MidAtlantic growth.

While certainly the management whipsaw machine is in full force, with 465 RJs to be flown it is unlikely that any of the wholly-owneds will be left out as long as Mesa chooses not to sign on to Jets4Jobs.

Lets not let our displeasure with this course of events impact the way that we care for our customers. Ultimately the survival of US Airways depends on taking good care of the folks in back -- not on who gets the next RJs.

 

[FR8mastr]

Just curious what exactly would it take for you to stand up and say something. obviously losing your job, and ALPA using tactics directly prohibited in their bylaws and extorsion are not enough. So please answer if you can What would ML and ALPA have to do to you before you finally said enough? It is exactly that attitude that allows all this whipsawing to take place. Management knows you and acts accordingly.

Just because they have relief for 475 RJ's does not mean they will get them. They have had releif for 70 for many moons now and as of 2 months ago they still did not operate that many.

This has nothing to do with the passengers in back, never has!

All the time while we are crawling around on our bellies hoping that the superior ML pilots will allow us to live management had the balls to go to the judge and demand the 6 mil. in bonuses because it was in their contract and they wanted to be paid. Guess what, they got it!!!!! This is the same management that put this airline in this position in the first place!

If we act like self defeated pathetic unworthy idiots we get treated that way. Here we are gentlemen Thank you sir may I have another.

328 you need to get a copy of section B and B3 of the ML TA YOur union people should have it. Make sure it isnt a doctored version.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

The Restructuring Agreement

Attachment B and B-3 huh?

No problem. I have the agreement right in front of me, all you have to do is tell me which part of the multi-page attachments you are referencing and I'll be happy to post that information.

For the moment I'll assume you're referencing the section below.

Attachment B - Small Jets

Placement of Small Jets

Definitions:

• "MDA": MidAtlantic Airways
• "Participating Wholly-Owned Carrier": a carrier wholly owned by US Airways Group, Inc., other than MDA, that participates in the Jets for Jobs Protocol (Attachment B-3) and in the restructuring program.

Participation:

• Each of the Wholly-Owned and Affiliate Carriers will be offered an opportunity to participate in this program based upon the terms stated herein. Should a Carrier elect not to participate, the program will continue with participation of the carriers that wish to participate.

Placement of Small Jets:

Large SJs: Will be placed only at Mid-Atlantic Airways (MDA)

Medium SJs:

• The first group of up to 70 Medium SJs may continue to be placed at any carrier under the terms of the existing section ONE and LOA79 of the Agreement. (Note: These are the RJ's already flying with CHQ, Mesa, and TSA)
• The next group of 70 medium SJs may be placed at participating afiiliares or participating wholly-owned carriers.
• Additional Medium SJs will be placed at MDA except that US Airways may place other Medium SJs at other participating carriers, but it may do so only if the aggregate number of such additional medium SJs in the active fleets of US Airways Express carriers other than MDA (xcluding those placed under the two bullet points above) shall not exceed 150% of the number of Medium SJs in the active fleet of MDA.

Small SJs: May be placed at MDA, Participating Wholly Owned Carriers, and Participating Affiliate Carriers.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Also in attachment B:

The following is also in attachment B:

Flows Between Carriers:

• Following the recall of all furloughed US Airways pilots, pilots employed by participating wholly-owned carriers shall be eligible to flow through to any new-hire US Airways pilot positions in order of their seniority position on the integrated seniority list of pilots of wholly-owned carriers.
• Pilots employed by participating wholly-owned carrier who become MDA pilots or US Airways pilots under this attachment B may flow back to their respective participating wholly-owned carriers. US Airways pilot employed by MDA, if furloughed from MDA, may displace into positions at participating wholly-owned carriers in order of their seniority as US Airways pilots as per the jets for jobs protocols (Attachment B-3).

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Attachment B-3

Ok...lets see if I can find the part of Attachment B-3 that you might have been talking about... (geez I hope you appreciate this because I'm getting tired of typing)

Attachment B-3: Jets for Jobs Protocol - Carriers other than MDA

Filling of Vacancies: At least 50% of New Vacancies (Captain and First Officer) and 100% of Backfill Vacancies (Captain and First Officer) will be made available to affected pilots and U pilots on a cumulative basis in accordance with this protocol until the affected pilot list ("APL") has been exhausted. A vacancy will be eliminated, and not be included in the formula specified by the foregoing sentence, if no affected pilot has accepted employment to fill the vacancy and no U pilot has bid the vacancy.

Backfill Vacancy: A small-jet position (Captain or First Officer) at a carrier that becomes upon when an affected pilot vacates that position. (essentially the reference to this above keeps the 50% in check as pilots move out of those positions)

Ok...I'm going to skip one or two of the bullet points below because they only reference tracking of the SJs that are placed into service. I'll only copy those sections which I think you were referring to in the posts above. If you think I missed something important, let me know the paragraph and I'll post it

Determination of the Number and Duration of Vacancies:

• If there is a reduction in the staffing needs of a carrier because of the removal of an additional small jet, the carrier shall determine if it projects an excess of pilots as a result of such reduction. If so, the carrier shall inform the association and may reduce the number of New Vacancies and Backfill Vacancies provided that at least 50% of Vacancies at that carrier will continue to be held by or made available to affected pilots unless the ratio is altered in accordance with the "filling of vacancies" paragraph above.

That was about the only thing in B-3 I could find that you might have any heartburn about. If I missed something, like I said, let me know and I'll copy it for you.

Hopefully this helped.

 

[FR8mastr]

furloughed, I wasnt even talking to you but since you asked, This all started from the idea that PSA is going to be awash in jets shortly, if you really believe that fine. Forget it, I dont have the patience nor will power to argue with you, heck I really do hope you get them! As far as being extorted and PSA reniging on the ONE Voice thing, the fact that you think that is the right thing to do says it all. We have absolutely nothing in common so I won't waste your time trying to convey any points.
Everyman for himself ALPA at it's finest.

good day and good luck

 

[NYRANGERS]

PSA has the weakest MEC in ALPA history, there is only one true leader there (MZ). Their top leadership must be replaced in-order to restore basic ALPA morals. The very WEAK PSA pilots must replace Toothe, Ebbert, and at least 3 more local members to earn any respect.


Until these iffy pilots are replaced with strong leaders, PSA will become an open sore on ALPA's face.

 

[meanstreak]

With Mesa agreeing to Jets for Jobs and flying more jets, I doubt we will ever see RJ's here. Thanks again Mesa for whoring yourselves out.

 

[FR8mastr]

I as a WO pilot will never cast a stone in Mesa's direction because we have also lowered the bar to the lowest pay rates in the industry. Mesa has better pay. Mesa also will not furlough their pilots so ML pilots can take their jobs. Something we can't say. Even then, they didnt want J4J. But because of our inept leadership we have signed leaving Mesa really no choice. So if you want to call somebody a whore look no further than yours and my own pilot group. PSA signed away on the first day and the other two follwed along two months later. This whole mess is our own doing

 

[BoredToDeath]

Fr8,

I feel your fustration and nobody is happy about anything that has happened in the past months. Were just trying to deal with it as best we can. But after much consideration if the 3 WO'd did not go for this we would've most likely been gone by sometime next year. And still whos to say that that may not still happen, but I think we have a better chance now of staying alive then if we did'nt sign.

There are some drawbacks to the new rates, but I have never seen Mesas' contract so I could'nt say that they are below Mesas. People I have spoken to who have seen their contract say that the begining rates are lower but over time, roughly five years the WO should still be higher with much better work rules. If anyone has a copy of Mesas' contract (pay rates and work rules)I would like to see it.

Remember if not for the contract carriers the WO would have had alot more bargining power.

Take Care,
BTD

 

[scouts out!]

MESA PAY vs TA @PSA

I recently spoke with a mesa crew while I was on a deadhead and from they have told me our rates are much better that theirs and that includes how we are paid along with how much. I don't remember the exact amount but do remember that PD is $1 per hour and they are paid segment time not block or better. For what its worth. Not much

 

[FR8mastr]

I was referring to the fantasy "jet rates" the ones we all will be paid when the hundreds of RJ's show up.

 

[BoredToDeath]

Fr8,

I was also referring to the jet rates. If we could get someone from Mesa to post them, from what I've been told, I think you'll find that the WOs rates over time are still higher. But as much as I've asked I've still never been able to get anyone from Mesa to post them. I seriously hope that what my reps have said is true, but until I see it for myself, I quess I'll never know.

Scouts,

WhaaaasssssUpppppppp!

 

[Beavis]

ANY WAY YOU PUT IT --- THE RATES SUCK!!!!

Bored, you can put any spin on it you want, these rates are SHAMEFUL, and an UTTER EMBARRASSMENT!!! 1st year, $20/hr. Ok, thats about standard. 2nd year -- $22????? Look at Comair, ASA, ACA, COEX, Air Wisc, Horizon......2nd year jet rates are approx. $33-37/hr for 2nd year jet FO's!!!! This is unbelievable, and a crime. I cant remember, but how long do the PDT, ALG, PSA rates take to make that, like 6 years???? So, dont get too excited about your new jet, IF you ever get it. Over the next 2 years, I believe you will see Mesa and Midatlantic pick up jets, maybe with WO having "options" on future RJ's. Dont forget Midway and others like Wexford (Chat. and Shuttle America)

Anyway, forget Mesa. These rates are insulting! Too bad they were extorted out of the WO pilots by Dave and his thieves at U management!

 

[dondk]

For those who want to read the Mesa contract.
http://www.mesaalpa.org/contract-ending-2001/contract-2001-Index.html


This is the comparison of Mesa to otther carriers for Mesa to get industry standard wages. The Industry Standard wages went into affect Dec 2000.
http://www.mesaalpa.org/contract-ending-2001/50seatRJ.html


These are the Rates BEFORE industry standard increase.

Effective December 2, 1996:
YEAR CAPTAIN FIRSTOFFICER
0-1 Years 46.49 16.83
1-2 Years 47.89 24.77
2-3 Years 49.33 26.88
3-4 Years 50.80 28.22
4-5 Years 52.33 28.94
5-6 Years 53.89 29.42
6-7 Years 55.11 29.79
7-8 Years 56.76 30.29
8-9 Years 58.47
9-10 Years 60.22
10-11 Years 62.03
11-12 Years 63.88
12-13 Years 65.81
13 - 14 Years & Thereafter 67.78

Mesa is also $1.00 per hour per diem, they also have no cancellation pay for ANY reason.

Yes, Mesa does get paid on segment time, not block or better. Although, some trips you can make money on and many of the guys fly slow just to get that segment time increased (done every 3rd qtr if I remember correctly)
It is conceivably to fly 85 hours and get paid for 75.

Min days off... 9 for line holders (although I do not remember many line holders ever getting less than 10 days (that was so they can junior man you at least one day), 8 for reserves.

Finally, MESA has been operating without a contract since December 2001.

 

[Concierj]

Current Mesa Jet Rates:


50 – 59 Seat Jet Equipment (CL-65 & EMB-145)

YEAR CAPTAIN

0-1 Years 50.07

1-2 Years 51.60

2-3 Years 53.17

3-4 Years 54.77

4-5 Years 56.43

5-6 Years 58.11

6-7 Years 59.54

7-8 Years 61.36

8-9 Years 63.24

9-10 Years 65.15

10-11 Years 67.09

11-12 Years 69.12

12-13 Years 71.20

13-14 Years 73.35

& Thereafter



50 – 59 Seat Jet Equipment (CL-65 & EMB-145)

FIRST OFFICER

0-1 Years 20.43

1-2 Years 27.36

2-3 Years 30.53

3-4 Years 31.83

4-5 Years 32.78

5-6 Years 33.55

6-7 Years 34.00

7-8 Years 34.48

 

[scouts out!]

PSA Rates
These are first year effective date pay rates and there are 6 years worth of rates.

Captain F/O Pay Rates
0-1 48 20
1-2 52 25
2-3 52.95 27
3-4 56.85 31.37
4-5 58.57 32.34
5-6 60.29 33.05
6-7 61.76 33.59
7-8 63.55 ED + 6yrs maxes 40.07
8-9 65.62
9-10 67.50
10-11 69.45
11-12 71.45
12-13 73.49
13-14 75.60
14-15 77.64
15-16 78.42
16-17 79.20
Effective Date +6years maxes out at 94.54

These are rates straight from the contract and reflect the first year rates and then show the max at the end of 6 years rates became effective Oct. 1, 2002
Per Diem is currently 1.30 down from 1.45 (lost 15 cents in our concessions)

 

[BoredToDeath]

Scouts, Concierj, and dondk,

Thanks for posting the info. And as you can see Fr8 there are areas where we fall below but not by much. For example our most senior FO (who has'nt upgraded for what ever reason) is from 1999 and on the jet rates would make aprox. $0.46 less an hour than a Mesa SJ FO of the same longevity. Which at our 75 hour guantee means that he would make $34.50 less a month than Mesa. Thats nothing considering we can make that up in Perdiem, Block or Better, and 100% cancellation in a heartbeat.

And like I said earlier, it goes back up around the 5yr Capt. mark. Don't get me wrong I would like to see these higher but I think we will have to deal with some Sh&t for alittle while longer. MDA will take a long time to get started and I see an IPO in the future for the merged WO. Dave can't IPO the contract carriers.

 

[BoredToDeath]

Beavis,

I'm not trying to put spin on anything. I'm just as pissed as you, but dealing with it and playing the game as best I can.

The 2nd yr rates you mentioned seem a bit off though. I have'nt check the rates between PSA, PDT, and ALG. Did they come up that much different? Send me what info you have, if you have the time.

Take Care

 

[d328pilot]

Seigel's response to my email

So I decided that since I cannot get any info from our union on anything, I decided to email the CEO and see if he would answer. To my surprise, he answer the same day. So now, I guess that I have to get my information from the company instead of the union....isnt it supposed to be the other way around? Its funny, I remember from basic leadership that communication is perhaps the most important tool that a leader has. And lack of communication results in discention (sp?). Every day that goes by I see Siegel as more of a leader, and the union as more of the enemy...that is very sad. Anyway, here is the response:

(my name),

We are trying to get a competitive labor agreement for both props
and rjs with all work groups. If not, we will liquidate any wholly owned
that is not competitive.

If we do, rjs will go on a prioirty basis to the carrier(s) that play.
RJs,
however, are subject to our ability to get financing.

Dave

 

[Beavis]

Sounds like another kiss off to me!!! Dave will say anything to placate everyone!!! First it was, "Concessions or liquidations." So all the WO's caved in because they thought giving concessions meant Jets would show up on the ramp the next day! Now, Dave says, "I need more, and then only maybe to whoever is the best boy and plays the nicest!!!" What a joke! Good luck to you all who are tying your career hopes to USAIR, and more specifically the WO's!!! For me, I'm glad I got the hell out of there!!!

 

[FR8mastr]

328, was that letter recent? I hope not because we have given that *&%$@@@#$ everything he asked for and now the only airlines we are equal too are the lowest paid in the industry. Please Please tell me that this happened a while ago. In MY opinion a Leader is not someone that lies to his employees at every oportunity and tries to whipsaw all groups concerned. A real leader would show us the books to back up his claim and tell us the real plan for our future. At least then we would know where we stand. I could respect that at least. But the constant Lying and secret backstabbing is not the sign of a leader just a typically underhanded backstabbing greedy no good politician who like the others is just looking out for his own bank account and his personal reputation at the country club. Having the power to put tens of thousands of people on the street does not make someone the masiah, just the boss.