Prove Capt. God wrong...

[dsee8driver]

Every airline has one and I think we all have, at one time or another, flown with a Captain with a Godlike complex who thinks he is the ultimate pilot. This last 2 weeks I had the pleasure of flying with one. Here is what happened. I would like to hear some opinions about it from my fellow aviators. I say he is wrong but he insists he is right and will end up in the training center when he retires. (God help us, NOT)

Descending through 9000', 30 nm from HNL @ 250 knts, we get an atc request, "ATN !@# maintain best forward speed" At this time he accelerated to 290 knts while descending. Then we get " ATN Can you maintain 210 till 10 nm? We answered, YES!. He maintained 250 knts till 10 nm out, slowed to flap/gear speed, got her dirty AND then announced he was going below the glideslope to be able to slow down. (Something I still don't undestand, since, while diving below the slope you are also increasing your airspeed) Anyway, thanks for the input.

Dsee

 

[LarryinTN]

Which practice of his are you questioning?

250 knots below 10,000' does not apply when more than 12nm (sm?) from the coastline.

Regarding ducking below the glideslope, refer to 14 CFR 91.129:

(e) Minimum Altitudes. When operating to an airport in Class D airspace, each pilot of—

(1) A large or turbine-powered airplane shall, unless otherwise required by the applicable distance from cloud criteria, enter the traffic pattern at an altitude of at least 1,500 feet above the elevation of the airport and maintain at least 1,500 feet until further descent is required for a safe landing;

(2) A large or turbine-powered airplane approaching to land on a runway served by an instrument landing system (ILS), if the airplane is ILS equipped, shall fly that airplane at an altitude at or above the glide slope between the outer marker (or point of interception of glide slope, if compliance with the applicable distance from cloud criteria requires interception closer in) and the middle marker; and

(3) An airplane approaching to land on a runway served by a visual approach slope indicator shall maintain an altitude at or above the glide slope until a lower altitude is necessary for a safe landing.

 

[AA717driver]

If you were on the visual, you can duck under. Yes, going below the GS builds up speed but unless you are doing it while you are trying to slow, it's ok. At least it's been a common practice in my experience.

Say you are 15 or 20 miles out and ducking a dot or two under and then levelling off to both bleed speed and catch the slope--that's fine, IMO.

Doesn't mean the guy's not a di@k, though. JMO.TC

 

[semperfido]

it is obviously not this one issue that is the problem here. it was a fairly minor blunder or poor technique to be sure. however, over the next 20 years i think you will come across many different techniques and you will have your own boundaries which will keep you safe. as for cap god-- its all about working together --try to find some common ground--you probably won't see him again for a long time anyway.....fogetaboutit!

 

[LarryinTN]

If you were on the visual, you can duck under.

On what do you base that? The regulation seems pretty clear.

 

[bocefus]

I'm assuming you were in the Diesel 8?? Most folks not familiar with them don't realize that they are very different from the Boeings in that regard, they will slow down and go down very well, just not at the same time!! Is use of reverse thrust approved in the descent from cruise by your operator?

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

hey cappy, I am sure you're one of the 20,000 so called professionals reading this

why don't you chime in on your servant's comments?

 

[Vector4fun]

Descending through 9000', 30 nm from HNL @ 250 knts, we get an atc request, "ATN !@# maintain best forward speed" At this time he accelerated to 290 knts while descending. Then we get " ATN Can you maintain 210 till 10 nm? We answered, YES!. He maintained 250 knts till 10 nm out, slowed to flap/gear speed, got her dirty AND then announced he was going below the glideslope to be able to slow down.
Dsee

I dunno if he's wrong, but he's #1 in my next sequence!

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

If you were on the visual, you can duck under.

Well that's just wrong. If there is a glide path available (vasi or glideslope) you must not duck below it.

Ace

 

[con-pilot]

For you guys that are saying one cannot duck under the GS on a VISUAL approach please read para. 2 of what LA-ABX posted in his quote.



There is nothing wrong in dropping below the glide slope OUTSIDE the outer-marker/final approach fix in VMC. Unless you company operating rules prohibit such action.

 

[minitour]

I dunno if he's wrong, but he's #1 in my next sequence!

Oh you ATC guys

 

[shamrock]

Off the subject, but have any of you ASA guys notices how Mini's avatar looks kind of like one of our more senior Captains?

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

For you guys that are saying one cannot duck under the GS on a VISUAL approach please read para. 2 of what LA-ABX posted in his quote.



There is nothing wrong in dropping below the glide slope OUTSIDE the outer-marker/final approach fix in VMC. Unless you company operating rules prohibit such action.

Also not true. If you are on an IFR clearance, whether VMC or IMC, you may either decend to an altitude depicted on the aproach, an altitude that ATC clears you to (min vectoring alt. or approach segement). Just because you are VMC, you cannot 'duck' below. Period.

 

[minitour]

Off the subject, but have any of you ASA guys notices how Mini's avatar looks kind of like one of our more senior Captains?

LMAO
Sign me up...that's where I wanna work!

-mini

PS
Did you know that the Oompa Loompas in the movie were mostly German and spoke no English. They overdubbed the whole singing and they just moved their mouths to the words. Also, there were only a few of them. The rest of the Oompas that you see in the movie are "recreations".........just call me Cliff

 

[laser]

Regarding Captain God's "duck below and slow" technique, I think I can see his reasoning, and given that he's outside of the marker, I think it might make sense. ( Never tried it though). I dont think it would be a good technique closer in.

He's fast at ATC's request, and now has to do two things: Slow Down and Come Down - which is very hard to do in a short distance. He's just choosing to lose the altitude first. After his descent, he's now ready to maintain altitude and decelerate to make his final configuration change. If he has executed it properly, he has given himself enough room to capture the G/S after he's fully configured. Maybe I'll try this next time I'm a little high and fast (outside of the marker).

I've always slowed first, but then have to reduce power for a high descent rate until capturing G/S from above. Again, you can't slow and descend at the same time over a short distance - he just chose the reverse of what many of us usually do.

As for the 290 Kts thing - illegal unless over the water like LJ-ABX said.

 

[Ty Webb]

I don;t know anything about the DC8, but in some jets, it can be difficult to slow down while maintaining the G/S, if you have already intercepted it before configuring.

If you get yourself in that position (usually because of poor planning), you basically have two choices- either "duck under" and then decelerate below the next limiting speed (techically not legal), or go high on the G/S (visual conditions) while slowing it way . . . way . . . down . . . to . . . . .ref . . . then, once fully configured, descending at a much slower groundspeed, until you re-intercept (probably legal, but very slow).

Neither of them beats simply planning ahead and recognizing when to ATC requests are likely to put you in this situation.

Sounds to me like your guy knowingly accepted a clearance that put him into the situation, because experience taught him he could get out of it, albeit from a slightly-less than legal old freight-dog trick, but due to his abrasive manner, it rubbed you the wrong way.

I would chalk it up to one of those "Learn something from every Captain, whether it is 'what to do', or 'what not to do'" and leave it at that.

 

[con-pilot]

Not when you have been cleared for a visual approach Ace. When you have been cleared for a VISUAL (as in look out the window, find the runway and land on it) you can be below the glide slope and/or drop under the glide slope as long as you are:

• Not established on the Loc/GS.
• Outside the final approach fix.

Now, if you are established on the ILS and then are cleared for a visual approach you may NOT go below the glide slope.



We may be agreeing Ace, I just thought I would clarify my statement.

 

[dsee8driver]

I'm assuming you were in the Diesel 8?? Most folks not familiar with them don't realize that they are very different from the Boeings in that regard, they will slow down and go down very well, just not at the same time!! Is use of reverse thrust approved in the descent from cruise by your operator?

We used to be able to use them until parts started falling off. Now they made it emergency use only!