proposed delta cuts

[wms]

amcnd,


You're right---and with the recalls designed to last through negotations---any new airplanes will likely have the furloughed pilots flying them--at lower negotiated pay rates.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Hopefully at the ML. NO J4J.

 

[MedFlyer]

Medflyer,

Sure, there could be some productivity increases, but Malone has said that he will not bargain away jobs--and that should worry YOU. That might mean that Dalpa intends to go after new aircraft with lower pay rates---both of which will hurt your chances at Comair. First, no new aircraft might stall your upgrades, and then lower pay rates will force you to eventually negotiate. Why? Because Delta will squeeze you by not giving you any growth, and maybe parking some of your planes eventually---which would put pressure on your MEC and they would then use a carrot of expansion to coax you to lower rates. I am not making fun of you here---just noting that it seems this Delta management team is hellbent on taking pay away from ALL OF US. That is NOT good. Look at Northwests MEC saying that they will fly all of the new planes 70 seats and up. Expect that for any NEW aircraft--and the RJDC can't do anything about Delta and Dalpa possibly negotiating for new aircraft and their uses. Dalpa lowered the bar in '96 and created Delta Express to bring back furloughs. They will do that again unfortunately---and probably with some new 70 seaters and/or 100 seaters.

Notice how Coex has developed a whole bunch of new city pairings to Mexico (I think they go to 25 or 30 cities from IAH) and a bunch of new routes from IAH to Boise, Bakersfield, and Palm Springs.... DCI mainly flies on routes that were once flown by MD-88s or MD-90s from DFW. Besides a few new cities from our main hubs (New Haven, Binghampton, etc form CVG and Freeport and Key West from ATL)---DCI has covered old routes flown by Mainline. Now the passengers are supposedly back---and more and more have to fly on cramped RJs for longer and longer flights. Debate that please.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I'm sure BK will be worse for Comair/ASA pilots, but not necessarily as bad as you think. If CMR/ASA take cuts and the DL scope clause goes away, what's to stop management from putting the 100 seaters at CMR/ASA? See General, you aren't thinking these things through. In BK management will have NO incentive to give the 100 seaters to you. They'll just give them to whoever is cheaper and after cuts, CMR/ASA will be cheaper than DL mainline.

On a personal note, I think the 100 seaters should be flown by mainline. Just as I thought the 70 seaters should have been flown by mainline. But I have no control over the stupid moves made by your union and management.

Your union has botched these negotiations in the past, what makes you think they'll get it right now? They screwed up on the 777 flying, they screwed up on the 70 seaters, they screwed up and gave DL almost an unlimited number of 50 seaters, so how do you know they'll get it right now?

As for RJ's replacing MD88's, sure it has happened in DFW. But that's mainly because DFW is a big money loser for DL. Why should DL fly half emty MD88's out of DFW just to make YOU happy? DCI has added tons of new routes that were not mainline replacements in the past few years....ATL-EYW, ATL-ATW, ATL-FNT, ATL-FPO, CVG-ERI, CVG-MLI, CVG-CMI, CVG-BIL, CVG-BGM, CVG-HVN, CVG-ACY, CVG-SHV, CVG-XNA, SLC-EUG, SLC-STL, CVG-SGF, CVG-DAB, CVG-FSD, BOS-YFC, BOS-GSO, JFK-STL, JFK-BNA, JFK-CMH, JFK-IND, JFK-GSO, JFK-SAV, DFW-BPT, DFW-VPS, DFW-TYS, DFW-LEX, DFW-GUC, DFW-CRP, DFW-TLH, MCO-MOB, MCO-CAE, MCO-HSV, MCO-RIC, FLL-BNA, DCA-CMH, DCA-LEX, DCA-CHS, DCA-JAX, DCA-HSV, CMH-FLL, CMH-RSW......I think you get the point (although it's hard to tell with you).

 

[On Your Six]

Wow, that list of RJ routes is impressive. RJs belong on secondary routes that don't compete with LCCs. DCA-CMH and JFK-GSO are fine - however, DCA-ATL and JFK-ATL just don't make much sense with LCC competition and the resulting pricing pressure...

 

[General Lee]

Medflyer,


Man, I think I am getting to you. You seem a little "on edge." This must be stressing you out, and for good reason. As Jetblue just posted their 100 seat rates, your 70 seat rates may be in jeopardy eventually. I can understand your angst---we are getting slammed too.

I see that you have come up with some good examples of NEW RJ routes---like Moline and Flint---but the overwhelming majority of RJ flights are flights covering old Mainline routes. Look at SLC and all of the Montana routes---they were always packed during the Summer especially. Revenue lost for this Summer on those fairly uncontested routes. And, check out DFW----we used to fly to most of those cities--and now we don't and have lost probably many of our loyal DFW customers. Sad but true. DFW is a big money loser? Tell that to American. We have a lackluster Marketing department--and Leo and Fred Greed screwed that one up too. We had all of the facilities--all of the gates---even new construction with that terminal train that was going to make that terminal a first class place---all to waste. The routes out of DCA and LGA were smart---and that is one area where we should continue to use them--on choice point to point cities with little or no LCC competition. Alas, we still have most of them flying on routes that could use larger airplanes---with none to be found. Everything over 2 hours on RJs, as Grinstein says, is painful for passengers.

As far as Dalpa and their negotiating---as I see it they negotiated the highest paying contract ever in C2K. We raised the bar for even you guys. Thanks for your support and gratitiude. That is better than your Comair MEC did. When we negotiated our contract---times were good--and since then times have gone down the toilet---and we have offered smaller pay cuts for over a year that would have help the company a bit--and kept our rates still high. But, the company wants it all--and we have tried to negoitiate with no response for months. When our rates go down and we negotiate for any NEW 70 seaters and the 100 seaters---your pay rates unfortunately will be under the gun. As for Delta not giving the 100 seaters to us---that didn't happen in the USAir talks--and they still have to do some negotiating even in a Chap 11 case. Don't worry---Dalpa will negotiate a pi$$ poor rate for our furloughs to fly the 100 seaters and maybe some 70 seaters---they have done it before---it was called Delta Express. (History tends to repeat itself unfortunately)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[amcnd]

I was just thinking how APA tried to take the CRJ from Eagle and fly it. What will stop DALPA from trying to take them from ASA/Comair? this could be a real long road for everyone in the delta colors except ACA as there days are almost over. (its proboly a good thing). the only reason APA didnt get the CRJ's from Eagle is the FA/MX groups wouldnt take a pay cut. But DALPA is the only unionized group on the property. If I was Comair/ASA and we were having to take a hit like this ,I would demand all flying be done by the owend airlines. I have seen how this has hurt Eagle. and the APA.

 

[On Your Six]

In this cost-cutting LCC environment, there's no way Delta would discontinue contracts with CHQ, Skywest and maybe Skyway - they're cheaper than ASA and Comair and yet provide the same product/service... If Chapter 11 happens, I bet the party's over for the Comair and ASA folks and their pay rates - you're industry-leading regional wages will be subject to change... If JetBlue's low EMB-190 rates are confirmed, that might be the nail in the coffin for the high regional wages... Isn't this a great industry?

 

[AAflyer]

amcnd,

Curious about the word "take", APA tried to take that flying from Eagle? If we did , why would the FAs and MXs have anything to do with it? The parent company that buys our planes also buys yours. They offered it in that pathetic agreement we signed. We were allowed to negotiate to bring the jet over at a cost nuetral price. It couldn't be done, which is something many of us knew from the start.

Everything else you said seemed to be accurate.

regards,

AA

 

[MedFlyer]

In this cost-cutting LCC environment, there's no way Delta would discontinue contracts with CHQ, Skywest and maybe Skyway - they're cheaper than ASA and Comair and yet provide the same product/service...

Please provide us with the link that shows CHQ and SkyWest are cheaper than ASA/CMR?

 

[vc10]

There are no other "labor groups"---there's no other unions at Delta. Delta will haircut the rest as deep as they want, but not before the pilots take theirs, because to haircut non-union labor before union labor would give flight attendant and mechanics unions one of the best arguments for unionization there is. Don't worry, there's enough pain for everyone.

I am not a Delta employee. But at least the PAIN will be spread around more fairly in bankruptcy than the current path where only the mainline pilots are targeted - suddenly all labor group contracts are up for review (compared to peer averages). DAL flight attendant wages will be compared to those at AirTran and Jet Blue. Comair and ASA pilots will be compared to CHQ (don't they also operate under the Delta banner and provide basically the same product/service for a lot less?) and Mesa. Yeah, I think all labor groups within Delta should "invest" in Delta's future. I say bring on Chapter 11! Let the shareholders rot in he!l and screw the creditors... Funny how people become a little defensive when the gun is also pointing at them...

 

[On Your Six]

Medflyer,

What are the differences in pay rates between ASA/Comair and Skywest/CHQ? I bet a pretty good gap - especially when you consider Skywests CRJ-700 rates. What about financing charges on the CRJs, etc.? Delta doesn't cover anything for CHQ and Skywest. I have flown on both Comair and CHQ recently for repositioning, and service levels were identical... If Comair and ASA remain expensive vs. Skywest and CHQ, I'll bet a lot of future growth is outsourced to the cheaper alternatives. There will be a lot of pressure to close that expense gap if you want any growth going forward...

 

[On Your Six]

This can't be good...

"Jetblue just released their 190 payrates.

First year capt $70.71 for first 70 hours/ $106.57 over 70
2nd year $72.32
First year F/O $37.10 for the first 70 /
2nd year $39.95"

Just copied this from the Jet Blue EMB190 pay rate thread. Just imagine what the DAL management thinks about these proposed rates... I am sure someone is throwing a huge party... Do the Comair/ASA pilots have anything to worry about in terms of their own wages? You bet. You can thank Jet Blue's management for the potential reduction in ASA/Comair rates (gotta be competitive)... The bar continues to be lowered.

 

[BlackCoffee]

As the current ASA contract stands, it looks to me that CHQ makes a buck or two an hr. comparing the emb145 to ASA CRJ200. I guess all the outsorcing should go to ASA.

 

[On Your Six]

You're forgetting CRJ financing costs... Not cheap.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I think I'm getting nauseous.

 

[USCtrojan]

USCtrojan,

Once again for you----Delta can manipulate your balance sheet by not charging you for things that mainline really pays for---like Distribution (Delta.com) and reservations, airport gate usage, and putting you on routes that used to sustain 727s or 737s--and your planes would be naturally full. Notice how Coex has developed a whole bunch of new city pairings to Mexico (I think they go to 25 or 30 cities from IAH) and a bunch of new routes from IAH to Boise, Bakersfield, and Palm Springs.... DCI mainly flies on routes that were once flown by MD-88s or MD-90s from DFW. Besides a few new cities from our main hubs (New Haven, Binghampton, etc form CVG and Freeport and Key West from ATL)---DCI has covered old routes flown by Mainline. Now the passengers are supposedly back---and more and more have to fly on cramped RJs for longer and longer flights. Debate that please.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

I just logged in and there's a million more replies to this thread already!! I ask then in response to your question, does Delta also manipulate Skywest, Chitauqua's balance sheet as well with all ticketing, and reservations, etc? Just so I understand you correctly, are you basically implying that Comair and ASA are only profitable for these reasons that you state? (ticketing, etc.) I agree with you that long legs in an RJ would be uncomfortable. That definition, "uncomfortable long leg," is not for you and me to decide. That definition is left up to the market. Right sized aircraft for the right market. Unfortunately ALPA is trying to strong arm the company into manipulating where it sends its aircraft, and how frequently. I disagree with this. And I believe it's costing the company the ability to compete effectively.

 

[USCtrojan]

USCTrojan,

No offense taken. Keep this in mind, IF DAL managment gets the chance, they will improve their margins with Comair and ASA by reducing costs there too. Under bankruptcy, all contracts will be subject to change through negotiations - not just the mainline pilots. Why would GG leave cash on the table when he could reduce EVERYONE'S wages too - that's what the bankruptcy process would provide - an opportunity to trim all labor contracts. I am not a Delta pilot, but a lot of my buddies are. They are so tired of being the sole target in this long debate. Sure, LCCs have changed everything - nothing will EVER BE THE SAME FOR EVER AND EVER AND EVER. Wages will need to come down. But wait, the pilots aren't the only labor group in Delta - right? What about everyone else contributing to the "investment" in the future?

I think most Delta pilots (except for the random good-ole-boy Southern jacka$$) believe that it's time to accept the facts that wages will need to be lower to compete BETTER. But they are tired of being blamed for everything - they won their current contract through tough negotiations (sure, back in the golden days). Leo once said "a contract is a contract." The mainliners have been ready to talk for quite some time - this is a negotiation right? Now DAL management is trying to shape public opinion and the opinions of other Delta constituencies like the FAs and the regional folks - focus the blame and your "futures" on the actions of the pilots. The pressure on the pilots is BUILDING.... GG is brilliant - it's called divide and conquer...

If Chapter 11 happens, expect everyone's wallets to get thinner because DAL management will have the ability to renegotiate every labor contract - and I doubt they will give up a chance to reduce overhead when offered. DAL management doesn't want to wait for Comair's next contract negotiations - they will act to reduce the difference between Comair/ASA and Mesa or CHQ. Tough times ahead I am afraid...

Six,

I definitely agree, tough times ahead. For all legacy carriers. Legacy carriers seem to be the only groups fighting within each other. Legacy carriers are the only carriers asking/demanding their employees take pay cuts--which ultimately effects its passengers. ALA pissed off employees=pissed off passengers=no more airline. I have no idea what to expect in a Ch 11. I do know it will get worse before it gets better, unfortunately.

 

[MedFlyer]

You're forgetting CRJ financing costs... Not cheap.

You don't think that CHQ/SKYW don't factor these costs into the fees they charge DL? Again...provide a link that shows CHQ/SKYW are cheaper. If you can't, I'll just assume you are making things up.

Let me ask you this, if CMR is so expensive, why has DL given CMR so many planes in the past three years?? Why have ALL the CR7's gone to wholly-owned carriers?

I'm sure management wants to lower pay for CMR/ASA and in BK they might just have their way. But just remember, the lower the pay at CMR/ASA, the less mainline growth there will be. Personally, I would think the mainline guys would want regional pay to go as high as possible, so that the regionals become less appealing for future flying. But apparently, you want all your flying done by regionals.

 

[wms]

Please provide us with the link that shows CHQ and SkyWest are cheaper than ASA/CMR?

There are none. DAL refuses to release the financials on DCI, so there is no data to compare. Airways had a good CA article and RR said they are "moderately profitable", but said Airways that they were denied any specific data because "DAL will not reveal operating costs or financial stats for any WO." I suspect if we knew the real numbers, we would see how bad we are being taken advantage of.

 

[captainv]

>Please provide us with the link that shows CHQ and SkyWest are cheaper than ASA/CMR?

medflyer,

i'm not contesting your point, but Skywest pilots fly the 50 and the 70 for the same rate, which is less than the CMR 50-seat rate, i remember hearing that from a Skywest crew member. they switch airplanes on trips, but can only fly one or the other on a given day. one of those airline contract websites should have the numbers. as for what any of us really cost, only GG and the CFO truly know...

 

[FDJ2]

Internal Memorandum

Date: July 6, 2004
To: All Delta Employees
From: Jerry Grinstein, Chief Executive Officer
Subject: Recent Media Reports

This morning’s USA Today carried an article on the subject of Delta’s need to reduce pilot costs and the level of savings that will be necessary. As noted in the story, the information was obtained from an unnamed source. Because we want to keep you fully informed about developments within our airline, including responses we make to press reports such as these, the statement from me issued this morning is provided below:

"It is no secret that our situation grows more urgent with each passing day. As I have said to Delta people in meetings with them around the system – and again as recently as last week, it is painfully clear that last year's estimate of the cost savings we will need if Delta is to survive and compete is no longer valid. Instead, the hole has deepened during the intervening months. That is why we're working overtime on the strategic planning initiatives announced earlier this year – and why we are heartened by the recent positive and constructive initiatives from ALPA and Delta’s pilots."

As noted in last week’s memo, we will continue to update you in the coming weeks and months. Your clear understanding of the challenges Delta faces and the steps we must take together are absolutely essential to our company’s future.

Jerry Grinstein

It looks like Jerry's propaganda machine may have over stepped it's bounds and came close to derailing the negotiating process. Many Delta pilots wanted to with hold any future concessions in response to managements tactic of negotiating in the media and not at the table. The response from the DAL MEC was quick and very sharp to mismanagements leak to the media from an "insider." It looks like Jerry wants to distance himself from that "insider", while still justifying concessions and letting DALPA know that he is "heartened" by DALPA's efforts to reignite the negotiating process.