Professional Pilot Programs

[AZaviator]

Yea, certain flight schools/academies require their students to spend a few hundred dollars on uniforms, money which would be a lot more useful going toward flight time.

 

[Wiggums]

Time to grow up...

Diana,

As for flight schools, I am at ATA right now and just finished. It appears that there are going to be several options available to us VERY SOON. I shake my head at the suckers who gave up there training because the industry is hurting right now. Take it one step at a time. I did and it looks like I will get into a regional at <400hrs directly into a JET. As far as ATA, it has its quirks here and there but I honestly believe that it is the BEST flight school around. Airstage II is unbeatable here, 100hrsmulti, part 121 qualified ground schools, CRM environment, and now @30hrs in a CL65 SIM. Regionals are knocking on the door here since we got that SIM. The thing that puts this school above the others is that they are establishing relationships with several airlines not just one. No other school offers that. I know its costly, TRUST ME, but they have actually reduced the airstage II price by 15k.

Oh please, ATA is the best flight school around? Was that the school that lost it's 141 status? Or the school that ASA choose to no longer associate with? I seriously doubt that the airlines are about to kick in the front doors to get ATA's grads. If they are, and it's because of the rescue jet simulator, then I would say it was silly of you to pay for sim time that airlines give you for free. I don't know if you've heard of this, but airlines will train you how to fly their equipment when you get hired. It's not necessary to waste your own money. Moreover, Airstage II is complete joke. Flying around playing airline pilot by flying a light twin with a simulated schedule? How about 100 hours trying to keep the aircraft upright while students try to turf in the aircraft while doing Vmc demos? Now that's a real learning experience. Even better, that experience comes free once you get your MEI. Basically, my point is that you'd be better of putting all that cash you'll need for Airstage II and the CL65 sim in a paper bag and burning it, at least you'll stay warm all winter, and maybe some of next too.

About uniforms. The best way to describe a flight school that makes you wear uniforms is that it's like dressing up for Halloween everyday. It's cute for little kids to dress up once a year, but it gets stupid after awhile. I doubt anyone can give me any benefits of wearing uniforms during flight training. It's a waste of money, complete overkill.

Hopefully, you won't take to great personal offense to this post, but you can tell I DO NOT like ATA.

 

[naviator]

Hey,

In response to your question regarding a good professional pilot program.

In May last year after just finishing my private I had 25 000 dollars to spend on further flight training. So I looked around. All over.
Most of the schools I found gave me all ratings and approximately 25 hours twin time. I also checked out NAIA in South Carolina (I even visited the school), and I think it is a good school.

I didn't end up going there though. I ended up in Fort Pierce, FL and Ari-Ben Aviator. It's a small school with 6 Cessna 172's and 6 Duchesses. The good thing about this school is that for 25 000 you can enroll in their Pro-Course and after about 6 months you'll have all your ratings and 200 hours multi-engine! All the training is done in the Duchess. And you definitely can't find a deal like that anywhere else. At least I couldn't.

As you know, one thing that the airlines look for in an applicant is total time, but more importantly twin-time. I've been instructing here at Aviator for a little less than a year now, and I have about 1000 hours total with 700 multi.

Sure this school has its little "twists", as any other flight school, but you'll get a lot for your money.

You should check it out. (www.aribenaviator.com)

Good luck in your school search.
And by the way, I think this is a great time to start flying. By the time you're "done" instructing (in about 2 to 3 years) I'm sure the business has picked up again. At least so I hope

Naviator

 

[jaybird]

Be careful about getting an aviation specific degree. Its great if you want to become a pilot, however you are somewhat limited as to what else you can do. Excellant example is our current situation or if you lose you medical.

Jetbound, what happens if you forget to wear you uniform?
Do they send you home?

 

[dondk]

I gotta put my .02 in...

First, there will be retiree's in the next 6 years. How long though does the junior United guy think he may be furloughed? I have heard a very sad 2 years before a recall, how about the junior guy at Eagle, I believe another thread was alluding to year before recall. Will the retiree's out number the furloughed pilots? I don't have those numbers but with each major alluding to almost 1,000 pilot's on furlough each, I have some doubt... Regionals, will grow, undoubtly so. How much and how soon? all of us would like to know that! Heck if we knew that we would all bargain for the best contract out there... Who knows? not the ATA, FSI, or any other school, not even the airlines themselves.

To those 400 hr guys from any school who thinks they are getting a jet immediately... Think again, not when there are over 600+ "current" ERJ and CRJ furloughed pilots. Who do you think a company will pick? the dude who has the ink still wet on his/her commercial ticket or the dude who has several hundred hours in the actual aircraft on the actual line? My money would be on the later... 30hrs in a "sim" is no where close to the actual line!

As I recently completed CRJ training, I can say 30% of my class washed out, these were guys with 1500+ hours and 500+ hours in turbines and previous airline experience. I am not saying the CL-65 is a hard aircraft, but it is not a light twin either. A CL-65 sim is nice, but what will you actually learn other than good CRM? Any airline will send you to thier training at thier expense and you will learn it THIER way.

That is why they have training departments. ATA may give 30hrs of sim time but ask what you get for that? Are they doing approachs at 6, 6, & 6? with max x-wind? My company made us do that amongst other things.

The days of the 500 hour regional pilots are gone for a while, maybe a year maybe more, they will be back but not anytime soon with a good 1500 "regional" pilots on furlough.

I cannot speak for ATA's training, but I am highly suspect to anyone getting an "in" at any company when they are many brothers and sisters walking the unemployment line right now. There are very few regionals hiring, and only a few more rumored to be in the near future.

Finally to the 400 hour pilot, I truly do hope you get on with a regional and all the more if it is in a jet... Just be careful that the company is strong enough and your not going to get furloughed. This is why the CFI's are great, job security and you really get a great learning experience, it is hard work to get ( a lot harder than a cl-65 ground course) but it is well worth it...

 

[bobbysamd]

Flight Training

I've instructed at Embry-Riddle, FlightSafety and Mesa, so I believe I've experienced a representative cross-section of schools and students.

Indeed, you want to be sure that this is something you want to do because after you graduate you will face tremendous competition finding a job. This is true even in flush times. Do not for a moment believe any propaganda about "pilot shortages." There is no pilot shortage. There is NEVER a good time for anyone who is trying to find a pilot job. It seems as if EVERYONE wants to be a pilot. There are really very few jobs and tons of qualified applicants vying for each job. Every company has resumes coming out of its ears from qualified pilots. You need to know this going in so you know what you're getting yourself into. Even after you get in, you'll face stiff competition as you try to work your way up the ladder.

Make no mistake about it; you need a four-year degree from an accredited college to get anywhere in this business. We can start the debate anew about aviation degree v. non-aviation degree, but everyone will agree that you need a degree in SOMETHING.

FlightSafety in Vero is probably similar to the two schools you mentioned. It does cost, but I can vouch for the program. FSI offers quality training in quality facilities and from quality people. I worked with two instructors at FSI nine years ago who are still there who are great instructors and real gentlemen.

Embry-Riddle is very well known in the aviation business and earning a degree there means something. Riddle is expensive. You do get a great education, but flight training at Riddle can be frustrating because of not enough aircraft and the bureaucracy. A lot of people just earn degrees at Riddle and fly elsewhere.

Mesa Pilot Development is operated by the airline and really does work. You will earn your Commercial and graduate with about 300 hours and an Associate degree from San Juan College. It, too, will cost, but an advantage Mesa offers is if you do what is asked and act how you're supposed to act you'll get an interview with the airline upon graduation. In other words, you have the chance to go to work for a large commuter with 300 hours in your logbook. In most other cases, you have to instruct and/or do some other type of flying to build enough hours to be considered by the commuters.

A point to consider when selecting a school is to find out if it will hire you as an instructor after you graduate. Obviously, Mesa is an exception.

Finally, make no mistake about it, aviation hiring is tied to the economy. As other posters have written, there are zillions of qualified pilots out on furlough who are scratching for work. When hiring stops at the majors, hiring stops down the line. You have to be prepared for that. I experienced it ten years ago during the last war and economic downturn. I met every qualification for the commuters and sent out tons of resumes and apps to them. No commuter wanted me. The only way I could keep flying for a living was through instructing. Eventually, a bad economy turns good and hiring will resume, but who can really tell when that will happen.

Good luck with your plans.

 

[rjdreamer]

Professional Pilot Program

Hi Diana!
My background- a little older than most students (of anything!) at late 30's and an Aircraft Loadmaster in the Air Guard, plus acft maintenance and air freight, and several other airplane related career fields.
Here's my .02 for what it's worth.
1. Make sure this is what you want to do. For SURE.
2. Narrow down your schools with a list of what they offer and what your looking for. Use a spread sheet for comparison.
3. VISIT each school. Take notes,mental as well as on paper. Don't be shy or bashful. It's your life your investing in;choose wisely.
4. If you haven't already, purchase Robert Marks book" The Commercial Pilots Career Guide" and read it at least 2 or 3 times and use it. It's full of info.
5. I aggree with about getting your degree. Education is important.
6. I have visited Pan Am, ATA, and FSI. For more on what my visit this past July entailed, give a shout and I'll send you a personal. None of those 3 made the grade.
7. NAIA in S.C. would have been my choice, however they could not work @ my flying sched. at the guard. Prior to 09-11 I had planned on attending American Flyers. I have since been activated and will be going to school at a part 61 FBO in my home town. Things usually work out for the best.
Hope this helps.
Fly safe,
Dave

 

[johnsugar@compu]

Just wanted to add a little more.
No school is perfect. I was impressed with Mesa and FSI's programs. ATA worked for my wife and others. She and others went right to the right seat of jets and t-props. Alot of them are on the street now though.
Some carriers will prefer the "fresh ink" students because they will have them for a longer time=less turnover$$. Also, hiring furloughed pilots of other airlines may jump ship soon. The airlines will have to pick up the ones they put on the street first though. Cheers, John

 

[JETBOUND]

Look,

I am NOT here to pump ATA! I posted to give someone my opinion of the school. An insiders look(someone who has gone to the school and has gone through the program). You'll notice that I did say they have their quirks. One of which I didn't mention was that Airstage I pretty much leaves it up to the student to get by.

I have looked all over for a top-notch flight school when it was my time to come up. My Father and my older brother are captains for Delta and ASA respectively, and I turned to them for advice on choosing the BEST school. My brother went to ATP and trained in Hotlanta and Jax. He did very well for himself, finished his training, went straight for the MEI, then got hired by ASA at 500hrs. And TRUE it is definately cheaper than an ATA program. I narrowed it down to ATP, FSI, Comair and ATA. I chose the latter and although I was paying upward around 50K My father and brother supported the decision.

About the Uniforms, now. Yes, I agree that it can be a bit of a hassle, especially in the dead of summer! However, for those who are so skeptical about it, WILL YOU NOT BE WEARING A UNIFORM FOR THE REST OF YOUR CAREER?! The program at ATA is a Professional Program and thus they want us to appear as Professionals. It is one of there many ways they try to prepare us for the airlines.

Now the SIM! I did NOT pay for this program to get in a CL65 Sim. The program I paid for included 30hrs in a B707 full motion in Miami. The school recently purchased the $2mil CL65(RJ) SIM which was purchased to replace the SIM time in Miami in an outdated aircraft! They are now beginning to talk about purchasing another SIM, an ERJ. But we are not just going to jump right into the SIM like a bunch of idiots try to fly the big computer around. Before we even get in the SIM we are to receive a CL65 part 121 qualified ground school taught by a Comair Check-Airmen Pilot. I have already received EMB120 Specifics from this Instructor. They are now doing away with the Brasilia Specifics and are shifting to the CL65 Specs. The reason is simple, REGIONALS are doing away with Props and are shifting to the small JET!

This school is doing very well financially and its airline Discover Air is about to make some MAJOR moves. I believe we will find out what is exactly happening with them in the next couple of weeks. I have heard some VERY exciting rumors which I will not post until they release the announcement. But one thing I will say is that JEB BUSH has already come to our school(my class actually) and has begun a strong relationship with the Williams family. I have heard that he has already agreed to make us the Florida Regional airline and has given Discover Air all the contracts to the Florida College teams. However, this is NOT the BIG announcement. The reason I am posting this is because you do want to go to a financially well off school. The better off the school is the students reap the benefits, i.e. CL65 SIM

Dondk, I appreciate your words and believe me I am looking for the best airline I can get out of this school. We do have EAGLE, TranStates, Discover for SURE! The airlines in talks with us now are ACA, ASA, AIRTRAN and others that have not been told to the students yet. Yes we are talking with ASA again now that they have dropped FSI. I have confirmed this because I have friends at that school! I tried to be one of the first ones to go to ACA, however, since the relationship is just underway they still want 600/100hrs from their bridge programs.

Anyhow, IMO I think people will be shocked to see how fast things start turning around. I predict a VERY happy DEC for those furloughed pilots.

GOOD LUCK AGAIN!

 

[FlyinBrian]

Not sure I'm allowed to say this, but man you are full of piss and vinegar. I'm glad you're so motivated, and commend you on your positive attitude. At the same time, I don't think you have a clue how the airline industry works despite your family's experience. ATA may be doing well fincancially, but they are doing so on your back. I got hired by a regional literally 2 months after I graduated college and probably spent a third (or less) what you will, and I was extrmemly successful in training, even without 30 hours sim time in a CL65. Not to mention, I had a truly awesome experience getting to know aviation outside of the airline world. I am a pilot first, and an airline guy second, and the way I did my training reflects that. Schools that make you wear uniforms and promise that you'll get hired with 400 hours and charge ridiculous amounts of money for training you don't need prey on kids with their dad's money who think they'd look great in an airline uniform. By the way, during my airline training, I wore jeans and a polo shirt, so if you think that wearing epaulets, ties and slacks prepares you for the airlines, get real. Oh, and for my 40 hours of sim time, not only was it free, I got paid for a 65 hour month plus 16 hours a day in per diems. I hate to get into a flame fight, but you need to look outside of the box that ATA has put you in.

As to the original poster, if you want an airline job, don't pay money for "shortcuts." Do it right, and save money where you can, you'll need it later. 30 hours in a CL65 sim is 30 wasted hours and many wasted dollars. Careful what you pay for.

Just my .02

 

[dondk]

Jetbound,

After reading your post, I would like to comment...

Some of your post sounds like a recruiting speech for ATA, I read it then read it again to make sure what I was reading. Again, no one has a true finger on the industry right now. Some regionals are recalling, some majors are deffering more furloughs or even cancelling additional furloughs. Unfortunately, some other airlines are still indicating more furloughs to come. So for anyone, political, company, or even another pilot to say the worst is over is taking a guess and thats probably being polite. December may be better, but it will not be "better" until everyone is back at work. That will be a year or more and no less.

Discovery Air... a florida regional airline? What about the other regionals that service florida? Eagle, Comair, PDT, Mesa, Coex, and probably 3-4 more... Florida needs another regional like Airways needs to add another contract carrier! I hope it is true, but for the Govenor to say that Discovery will fly the STATE college teams? I cannot speak there nor will I, other than I hope it is true for Discovery.

A lot of schools do things to give pseudo airline atmosphere, personally I think it is a good thing. Whether it is uniforms, flying pseudo schedules, doing mock releases, whatever... it is all good and should be left as that... Good experience and nothing more and nothing less.

You are right that regionals are going to the jet, no argument from me or many other regional pilots. Any "jet" program though at any of these schools are not preparing you to go straight to work for XYZ airline, that is PFT! The only one I think that is doing that is Gulfstream (if they are still doing it).
These jet programs are really about CRM, a necessity in any jet and a necessity in any airline. Other than CRM, exposure to complex aircraft systems, procedures, and workload is the only thing these programs give the student. To think or suggest that these jet programs get the 300-500 pilot ready for the real deal is a mistake. Again a good experience, but only that, this experience may give you a slight edge in an actual airline class. IF for nothing else it will tell you if you are able to do a airline class.

You may be right that ATA has these relationships with those airlines. The real question though is are they active and how much leverage will it allow ATA's students over street hire's. Mesa's San Juan program and MAPD programs at one time were placing somewhere between 20-50% of each class with students from those programs. PDT was placing 10-20% of each class with students from UND programs. Where I am going is I would want to know how many (%) ATA is placing in any airline class. You can have relationships with 5 airlines, but how many are going per class?

To add about johnsugar's comment regarding wet ink new hires... Yes, but the wet ink new hire has to realize that coming in at 300-500TT they will be sitting in that right seat for a VERY long time. A guarranted FO for the company.
From my Mesa day's, we had many 300 hr F.O.'s in the 1900, it took the best just over a 14 months to get the time (1500) to qualify for Captain by hours. Now Mesa had one of the lowest upgrade times, that low time FO is senior many Captains, but they are still a FO at FO pay. What do these ATA relationship companies have in regards to upgrade times? Coming on board in a jet at 400 hours but having to wait until you have 2500 to get a Captain slot is going to take how many years? 2 1/2 or more? Yes, your senority will be great when you get there, but it is a long time.

Regardless, Jetbound it sounds like you have the drive and desire to make a good airline pilot. For that I hope you get a class date soon with the regional of choice and a jet position as well. I think this thread has produced some good information to prospective airline pilots and hopefully dispelled some fallacies that are out there.

 

[AZaviator]

400hr pilots from ATA direct to Airtran?

ATA has connections or will have connections with Airtran? I really hope you're not talking about a 400 hour pilot going into a Boeing 717 or 737, because that will never happen. Maybe you're talking about working the ramp for Airtran or being a ticket agent there. I'm not sure.

I would also like to know about Discover Air. You stated they might be flying a lot of Florida's college teams? The last time I checked, Discover Air flew Jetstreams, which I'm pretty sure won't hold more than 19 people.

In my opinion, the worst thing about ATA is that you aren't encouraged to get your CFI ratings. That very well could possibly be one of the first questions you're asked at an airline interview, why didn't you get your CFI ratings? Or asked why they should hire you with 400hrs compared to someone with all their CFI ratings and 1500 hours? If you don't get on with one of their 3 partner airlines who aren't hiring, then what do you have? A commercial certificate, 400 hours/100multi.....no job, no CFI, and in a world of debt. OH, but you have 30 hours of CRJ sim time.

Just trying to give you an insight as to what you'll be experiencing after the glorious days ATA.

My $2 worth. (not $.02)

 

[johnsugar@compu]

Brian, about your comment "Oh, and for my 40 hours of sim time, not only was it free, I got paid for a 65 hour month plus 16 hours a day in per diems. " I don't plan to enter a debate on it, but I think your point is coming from a philosophical angle. You got paid because you got HIRED. These guys/gals are doing it to get an interview that they would otherwise not get. It's o.k. to not agree with that method, but it is there and is an option. The basic deal with ATA is that you pay X amount of $$ to take you from A to B in the shortest amount of time. (Not that it's the best way)
Airlines have found over time that some 1500hr. + pilots don't have the skills needed. This makes the washout rate higher. So some have gone to various schools and said, "We will make a deal with you if you train your pilots this or that way." They now have some controll over the level of skill for entry level pilots. Again, I'm not saying it is better or defending ATA. As far as the uniform issue...it's not worth much discussion but my Wife hated having to wear it although she said it helped her feel professional and more responsible some how.
Sorry Diana...see what you started? Cheers, John

 

[FlyinBrian]

It is fair to say that my comment was made from a philosohical point of view. My philosophy strongly disagrees with selling a pilot a bunch of sim time that he/she does not need and will help them only a very minor amount. This type of training should be conducted by the airline. There are those that would disagree, but I think that CFI'ing is one of the best CRM exercises there is. You have to learn to make good decisions and communicate with another pilot in a REAL evironment in situations where your life actually is on the line.

I understand that MY way is not necessarily the right way or the best way, but I worked very hard to be where I am. (furloughed) And I guess it really touched a nerve with me to see a guy spouting off, literally saying the regionals are knocking down his door (which is clearly untrue given the state of the industry.) because he payed an ungodly amount of money for some jet sim time. These "airline" schools can get you on your way to the airlines, but they are unlikely to land you in a jet at 400 hours. If you talk to most airline interviewers, I think you will find they'd rather see some actual employment in aviation instead of a school like ATA on your resume.

 

[JETBOUND]

Ok, My last one, I promise.

Again, ATA was my choice, and it is being paid for out of the pocket of myself and my wife. I'm NOT saying that this school is for everyone. I think people are misunderstanding. I said I think ATA is the BEST school, that is, It's the BEST school for ME ! Some may disagree and choose other means for their flight training, That's GREAT! All I wanted to do was give a little input, I didn't mean to start a flaming fight there, Bri. And ATA NEVER promised me anything except the training I paid for. One of the Major reasons I signed the contract to ATA was because they had a VERY good relationship with ASA at the time. In fact, 10% of ASA's pilots at the time were ATA Grads. I'm sure it's much lower now since the fall off. ASA was one of my top three regionals that I would love to fly for(others being SKYW and ACAI). Flying with my bro at ASA would absolutely make my career!

Now the SIM, again. I say again, I didn't come to the school because of the SIM. The CL65 is a bonus. It is a BONUS to the program. All it does, like John says, is that it attracts regionals to our school Because this is an AC that many regionals fly or are trying to transition to. All it does is make the school more attractive. That's IT! And the training in it, which Im yet to receive, simply makes our resumes a bit more attractive in that we have a little experience in that AC. And Bri, I look forward to the day when I get paid for my SIM time, believe me! All I'm saying is that I'm excited about the fact that we have this SIM and we'll get time in it.

AZ, I never said Tran was on board. Believe me it's hard for me to believe too. But they are talking with us and said they would come down for some interviews. WHEN? Who Knows. And Discover owns EMB120s too. I think I've heard 5 more were recently purchased. I do agree with you on the CFI issue. CFI program is offered here and anyone who wants to go that route can. I totally agree with you in that having a CFI is a tremendously important backup, especially in these times. And as soon as my training is completely finished(RJ SIM and RJ ground) those are exactly what I'll go for. But I will not quit my training early because I DO know that the Airline industry changes DAILY!

Dondk, I suppose I am an optimist! What else can I be right now. Being Negative gets me nowhere. Being optimistic gives me HOPE! I agree with you on the Jet program issue. Basically that is all it is set up for is an introductory experience into Jet Systems and how to fly the AC in the SIM. What I have been told by former students is that some of our 400hr pilots were basically instructing CFIs and other higher time pilots how the EMB120 systems and Jet sytems work when they got to their New Hire classes. Not because we are all ace pilots but because we have received training in such classes in Airstage II. As far as the % goes to these different airlines, the % right now is 0. Nobody is hiring right now as you've mentioned because of the furloughs. But we've been told that Eagle will return to us in Jan., which means that all AA pilots must be called back first. This came from Eagles MGMT. That is why Im optimistic!

John, is your wife Susan? I don't personally know her but am familiar with the name SUSAN SUGAR who went here.

Think we scared away Diana.

Peace all, GOD BLESS!