Procedure turn or no procedure turn

[Jeepman]

O.k. what if you are approaching an airport (on an IFR flightplan) and you get cleared to the FAF, which requires a procedure turn and then you are cleared to the airport? ATC says, "you are cleared to ABC direct DEF (DEF is the airport)" You have not been given an approach clearance. You are approaching the fix at about a 90 degree angle to the final approach course. As I understand it you do not do the procedure turn, correct? If we had been given direct to the ABC fix, and cleared for the approach, we would have to do the PT as I understand it, but that was not the case.

I bring this up because this happened today & my fellow pilot & I had a disagreement about this. They said we had to do the PT, I said we didn't because of our last clearance & we were not cleared for the approach.

 

[81Horse]

What? Was the controller taking a potty break?

Sounds like you should have had an approach clearance, or holding instructions with EAC/EFC, prior to reaching ABC. The procedure turn is part of the approach -- you wouldn't want to fly it without being cleared for the approach. And you wouldn't go direct the airport -- that's just a clearance limit in the event of lost comm.

In fact, I'd say you should have queried the controller about it well before reaching ABC. What did you actually do?

 

[Flyerjosh]

I'm confused as to the question... (Mainly due to the wording of the clearance you got)...

Let's call the FAF intersection "FINAL". If this is the case, no controller would clear you "cleared to FINAL, via direct the airport" (with the exception of the case where perhaps you the airport was the IAF)...

Either way, he would probably clear you "Cleared to the airport via Final", or "direct, airport, direct final cleared for the approach". (Assuming he was playing by the rules). See what I'm getting at?

However, based on what you are telling me, unless you were proceeding inbound via a heading that either would have been a direct entry to the hold at the FAF, or via a published transition on the plate that states "NO PT", then the turn is required.

Of course if you get cleared for the visual approach, then anything is game and the PT goes out the window regardless of direction or angle.

 

[81Horse]

I think he meant he was "cleared to the DEF Airport via direct FINAL direct." Which makes sense. It just doesn't make sense that he got all the way to FINAL without an approach clearance or holding instructions.

 

[Slippery Mick]

If you weren't given a clearance for the approach, you can't begin the approach. That's a sticky one. I'd be inclined to hold, as you're not cleared to do anything else. Yuch.

 

[81Horse]

If you weren't given a clearance for the approach, you can't begin the approach. That's a sticky one. I'd be inclined to hold, as you're not cleared to do anything else. Yuch.

Well, I'd be inclined to utilize the magic of two-way radio communications and tell ATC I wanted an approach clearance. Or holding instructions. You know, a plan -- and a timely one, so it wasn't all a$$holes and elbows over FINAL.

 

[Slippery Mick]

Well, I'd be inclined to utilize the magic of two-way radio communications and tell ATC I wanted an approach clearance. Or holding instructions. You know, a plan -- and a timely one, so it wasn't all a$$holes and elbows over FINAL.

Well, obviously.

 

[Headwind]

Three times you don't need a procedure turn:
1) Chart says NO P T.
2) On a published route segment.
3) When on radar vectors (being vectored for straight in)

HEADWIND

 

[CA1900]

You were correct, your fellow pilot was not.

Unless the words "Cleared for the approach" came out of the controller's mouth, the procedure turn is completely irrelevant, because you haven't been cleared to follow anything on that approach chart.

Was the weather VFR? If so, my guess is that the controller was planning a visual approach, and direct to the fix, then direct to the airport, would have set you up nicely for it. A descent through the cloud bases would be forthcoming.

If neither the controller nor the ATIS advertised a visual approach, then you need to query the controller. He probably just forgot to tell you. But until something changes (like an approach clearance), do not fly a procedure turn on the approach chart. As you were cleared, fly to the fix then the airport (and hold over the airport until you commence your approach to arrive at the ETA, in the event of lost comm).

And of course if you don't have the equipment to fly direct to the field and hold, an "unable" would probably be in order.

 

[Jeepman]

We ended up asking for the approach with the PT. The controller was still confused as to whether or not we were going to do the PT. There was alot of traffic at the time & I think he was hoping we would go to the airport without the PT & get the visual.