Procedural Question: Fire at rotation

[bin LAAidoff]

At brand X, Y and Z, on B727, B737, MD80, it has been procedure to fly the airplane, clean up, then go for the memory items, followed by the abnormal/non-normal or emergency checklist, followed by the normal checklist.

ie. Positive Rate, Gear Up <silence the bell>, flaps 5, flaps 1, flaps up, <abnormal memory items/checklists> <after takeoff or climb checklist>, <approach checklist> <before landing checklist>

Logic is/was that fighting a fire etc below 1000' might to more harm than good. Sure, fire is burning, but with APU or engine, the sensing is on the engine case, and might not yet be widespread, or even a fire yet.

Deviate from the engine out profile/track, or pull the wrong fire handle, and many bad things happen. Let it burn for a minute, and handle the problem with a more clear head. Opinions may vary, but that was policy. One company did allow subject to Captain's discretion, accomplishing engine fire memory items below 1000'. My guess was that was compromise to a tastes great, less filling arguement in the training center.

 

[80/20]

First, I liked your old line of avtars better FlyChicaga !

I agree 100% with bin LAAidoff fly the plane first don't rush too much "relax - have cigar" as one of my old instructors used to say. As usual the procedure varies among different airlines. Boeings current 737 manuals only include the QRH procedure for APU fire without any further recommendations for when to initiate the drill or how to sequence it with other tasks. Boeing does recommended a sequence for engine fire on takeoff which is used by many carriers for both engine and APU fire. It goes as follows:

Accomplish the appropriate recall checklist items as soon as the airplane is under control, the gear has been retracted and a safe altitude (typically 400 feet AGL or above) has been attained.
Accomplish the reference checklist items after the flaps have been retracted and conditions permit.

Many carriers will do this in the following manner:
1) Silence the bell
2) Positive climb gear up
3) Fly the airplane, maintain situational awareness
4) Safe altitude - minimum - 400 feet agl
5) QRH recall items
6) Accelerate, retract flaps
7) Read QRH memory items and clean up items
8) After takeoff checklist
9) Return for landing as soon as possible

 

[80/20]

Sounds like a good idea FlyChicaga!

Another relevant question in this situation is when or how to talk to ATC?
Here is a situation that sometimes occurs in the sim:
1) Some problem is introduced during rotation
2) PF is very busy trying to fly e.g. a complicated departure with high terrain
3) PNF starts talking to ATC before the plane is under control or urgent items are addressed
4) The instructor throws out some "bait" - realistic questions about vectors, intentions and so on, (which and eager to help ATC controller might do)
5) The PNF takes the "bait" and starts a long conversation at the expense of his/her situational awareness. Crew awareness is temporarily lost and the PF is now flying single pilot without help to set radials, HDG bus, NAV FRQ., check the chart, altitudes and so on….

The point: Teach the crew to prioritize and eliminate to keep the workload at a manageable level. A crew that can control the workload will often perform much better.
A god briefing could include words like: I will need all the attention you can give me if we have a failure on take-off. I get very jealous if a PNF turns away to make a premature prolonged ATC call during a critical high workload emergency.

 

[80/20]

Sounds like you are designing an interesting program - a new jet training curriculum? Would like to hear more about it.

 

[80/20]

Are you familiar with the new JAA MCC requirement? (MCC = Multi Crew Co-operation)
This was introduced in the late 1990s and sounds similar to what you are doing. It is briefly described in JAR-FCL-1 on the JAA web site: www.jaa.nl.
It is a new training requirement with 25 hrs classroom & 20 hrs sim which must be completed before a pilot can get his/hers first JAA typerating on a multi-crew airplane.

PM me if you need more information (will be travelling and back next weekend).

 

[FL510GV]

Realistic Emergencies

The best emergencies are ones that are more likely to happen... How likely is an APU fire at/immediately after V1? Who has the APU running for takeoff? Nobody. In fact, it has probably been shut down for at least a couple of minutes (if you taxi w/ one shut down) or 10-15 minutes if you start them both up. An emergency that doesn't affect the handling characteristics of an aircraft can come in many forms... how about an AC Pack overheat? ADI/PFD failure? Generator Failure? Door Open Light? etc, etc. SIM emergencies are not best learned from when the SIM instructor is trying to "trick" the student.

Good Luck in developing your program.

 

[Freight Dog]

I'll second FL510GV.

Why would you have APU running on takeoff? While it's a captain's discretion, APU usually comes off as a part of before take-off checklist. You want a challenge prior to V1? Do things like electrical problems just prior to V1, or even a simple DOOR light coming on. Those are a lot more realistic scenarios than APU fire at V1.

Have fun with your program.

 

[PCL_128]

Not too familiar with the 737, but on the CRJ we always have the APU running on takeoff. It comes off with the climb check. We trained for APU fires on takeoff. Again, could be completely different on the 737 though.

 

[hopeful]

I agree that you can come up with a more realistic problem than an APU fire after takeoff, but you need to come up with some better ideas than a door light. If I get a door light after takeoff, I might address it shortly after I take a leak, drink some coffee, visit with the flight attendants, etc. That is not an emergency.

I know someone mentioned it before, but why would you have the APU running just after takeoff? The 727 won't have the APU running after takeoff unless someone screwed up really bad. It is not an inflight APU. It would have to inadvertently be left on and I would hope they would not follow the proposed," Gear up, flaps up " idea since the APU is in the wheel well. (I know you were asking about the 737, but someone mentioned the 727 too)

 

[atldc9]

On the dc-9-32 and the 717, it is common to leave the APU running for takeoff, but obnly when the wx sucks. It is used as a backup in case of a lost generator during those really low takeoffs...

 

[Freight Dog]

I was referring to door light, electrical problems, hydraulic problems, fire detection probs etc. because most places teach V1 cuts and aborts for blatantly obvious things. But I think in addition to that, it makes it good to have a side distraction where an item may be important, but do you abort the takeoff? Sure, here we can debate abort items and techniques all day long, but in the sim or in actual conditions, the results can vary.

 

[SLOTH]

Although an APU fire on takeoff may not necessarily be real world in some cases, I think it'll drive home the point of prioritizing of what gets done and when it needs to get done. It is a good way to get people to embrace CRM techniques when they wouldn't otherwise... just my .02 worth.

Sloth

 

[80/20]

The question we are asking here is if an actual APU fire on take-off is likely to occur?
This can be split into at least two questions:
a) Are there situations where the APU should be on during take-offs in the 737?
b) How likely is it to get an APU fire?

WHY WOULD THE APU RUN DURING 737 TAKEOFF?
1) The APU is often used on 737 performance-restricted takeoffs. Boeing calls this a "no engine bleed takeoff" which uses the APU bleed air for cabin pressurization saving all engine bleed for thrust, which can increase the takeoff weight with more than 3000 lbs.
2) The Master 737 MEL will allow you to substitute one inoperative engine driven generator with an operating APU generator
3) ETOPS require the APU to be operating before entering ETOPS phase of flight. In such cases I prefer to leave the APU running from departure, because it can be hard to start the APU at max altitudes. I also leave it on for long flights in remote areas without enroute alternates such as in the Arctic.

HOW REALISTIC IS AN APU FIRE IN-FLIGHT?
Not very realistic - chances are low. This is also the case for many other emergencies that we train for. Just think of how few airliners that has actually had an engine failure at V1.
There have however been problems with APU fires in-flight.
Another issue is false fire warnings - not totally uncommon. As an example one carrier has had more than 4 false wheel-well in-flight fire warnings on the 737-700 during one year.

CONCLUSION:
In my opinion, FlyChicaga's training scenario is as realistic as many other things we train for and it is also a good way to achieve the other goals that he/she has listed.

 

[flyinhard]

I am just curious as to why you would leave the APU on during takeoff. Someone said that if its low out then you do in case of a generator failure. Obdviously, load sharing would take place and the other generator would kick on. Is it left on just in case this doesn't happen and your not in the soup with a full electrical failure? Thanks-

 

[atldc9]

As far as leaving the APU on for those really low takeoff's, it is strictly as an elctrical backup in the 717. If you lost an engine right there on T/O, then obviously the remaining generator would pick up the load, but that might be a lot of load to drop immediately on the only remaining generator. The engineers say the remaining gen can carry it, but they didn't think the engine would quit either. In the 717, the APU has priority over opposite generator in the event of gen failures, so if it is running, the apu will get the load that the hypothetically failed engine's gen just dropped. That way your good engine's gen doesn't get tested to its max.

 

[SLOTH]

As everyone already has said, the APU would help out in some rare instances when you may potentially have a problem... It is ultimately up to the crew to determine their need for an extra generator, bleed, etc. All that FlyChicaga is tring to teach in his program is the use of CRM techniques and prioritizing the workload at a critical phase of flight. We are taught many things in the sim... most of it we will use on a regular basis, and others we will never see again in our flying careers. Remember, the sim is a tool to teach not only to fly an airplane, but to also teach the mental aspects of dealing with problems. Any of you remember reading about a short circuit in a part of the electrical system in your systems manual? Well, how often have you come across that as well?? That doesn't mean it'll never happen, but it isn't a daily/weekly or even a yearly occurence.

Sloth

 

[KC-10 Driver]

It is common practice on some aircraft to leave the APU running for takeoff under certain circumstances. I will grant, however, that I am not all that familiar with the 737 (my type rating notwithstanding).

For example, on the A320, the APU will be left running for a heavy weight and/or short field takeoff where performance is marginal. The APU would be used to provide pneumatics for the air conditioning packs, thus eliminating some bleed from the engines.

It is a technique some use (note, technique only) on the KC-10 to leave the APU running during a marginal weather takeoff to provide backup in case of an electrical problem. This is a similar rationale to the 717 procedures mentioned previously in this thread.

 

[LJDRVR]

Regarding the earlier advice concerning not becoming too involved with ATC, I once got scolded with some great advice from a sim instructor. Take NO action until:

-The AC is under completely under control

-Obstacles have been cleared (at least 400')

-BOTH pilots are situationaly aware of what is occuring.

In other words, don't drop the aiplane to fly the microphone.

Safe Skies!